Women Priests

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

You see, the problem with your stance is that it leaves Jesus and His Apostles behind as unenlightened ogres..
[quote name='carrdero' post='1425804' date='Nov 27 2007, 05:02 PM']Someday, through enlightenment, maybe this authority will be granted to women.[/quote]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1425563' date='Nov 27 2007, 01:59 AM']Well then if we cannot resort to any historical evidence, let us then examine from what we know and understand today. The Episcopalian faith successfully ordains women priests and they are valued as knowledgable teachers and caring leaders over the flock with absolutely no evidence of GOD becoming offended at all. I also know several female ordained ministers and reverends who are responsible in their ministry and take their calling very seriously.[/quote]

The only reason the Episcopal/Anglican church was founded was to disobey the biblical command against divorce/remarriage.

[ironmonk]

The Holy Spirit (aka God) guiding the Apostle Paul wrote that only men are to teach the Word... Women have a very important role, they are mothers.... women cannot be fathers.... A little fact that some need to learn and understand is that men and women; are different. If anyone has a problem with that fact, then they need to take a good look at themselves, and find the chip that is on their shoulder, then take it off.

More on the why...
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-V"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_pries...ml#priesthood-V[/url]


The information is out there if you really care to understand. If not, you won't go to the links and will continue to argue out of what you want, instead of listening to what God wants... and prove the chip on the shoulder comment above.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Graciela]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1425960' date='Nov 27 2007, 09:13 PM']The only reason the Episcopal/Anglican church was founded was to disobey the biblical command against divorce/remarriage.[/quote]


This is an oversimplification of the beginnings of the Anglican church. There was also a history of local monarchs in Europe and England having a say in the apoointment of bishops and that was also part of the issue in the Anglican church's split with Rome.

As for women priests in the early church, I am interested in the existence of images in the catacombs of women presiding at Eucharist and even wearing the pallium. As for names, Prisca comes to mind. I also think that some biblical scholars have noted that names in the epistles were changed from female names to masculine ones, which may be obscuring something about women's roles in the early house churches.

Theologically, I am most concerned about what it means about God to say that the church cannot ordain women. Is this an all-powerful God or not? The bridal language of the relationship between presbyters and the church is not an early church understanding, and so while revelation may be "closed," I am not so confident that our human understanding has fully apprehended the mysteries of the Incarnation, life, death and Resurrection of the Lord.
If God can become Incarnate and be fully present in the Blessed Sacrament, why hold so tightly to the notion that God can only work through human males to provide the sacraments? Didn't a human woman provide the physical material of which Jesus was made- why isn't that seen as evidence that God works sacramentally through women? I realize I am analogizing the Incarnation to sacraments here, but I see a correlation between the Incarnation and the Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.

I am trying to hold the questions here and think theologically about the ramifications of it.

[Socrates]

What the Episcopalians do is completely irrelevant to how the priesthood was established by Christ.
The Episcopalians came from the Anglicans, who split from the Catholic Church under Henry VIII in the 16th century.
The Catholic Church has had only male priests from the time the priesthood was instituted by Jesus Christ.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1426016' date='Nov 27 2007, 10:07 PM']This is an oversimplification of the beginnings of the Anglican church. There was also a history of local monarchs in Europe and England having a say in the apoointment of bishops and that was also part of the issue in the Anglican church's split with Rome.[/quote]King Henry did have a say in the appointment of the archbishop of Canterbury - and when he didn't get his way, the King had him arrest and later killed.

[quote]As for women priests in the early church, I am interested in the existence of images in the catacombs of women presiding at Eucharist and even wearing the pallium. As for names, Prisca comes to mind. I also think that some biblical scholars have noted that names in the epistles were changed from female names to masculine ones, which may be obscuring something about women's roles in the early house churches.[/quote]The images are there to be sure, but the feminist interpretations are wishful thinking at best by those who have already betrayed their cause - in this case women's ordination. These same types of "scholars" see the image of two saints united in Christian brotherhood and read it as the "first Christian gay marriage ceremony". [url="http://trushare.com/71APR01/AP01HIDD.htm"]Here's another more sober take on the images.[/url] As to these conspiracy theories, they have as much evidence as the DaVinci Code..

[quote]Theologically, I am most concerned about what it means about God to say that the church cannot ordain women. Is this an all-powerful God or not?[/quote]How does your question relate to the first statement? An all-powerful God 'could' ordain a rock, but we don't have rocks celebrating Mass..
[quote]The bridal language of the relationship between presbyters and the church is not an early church understanding, and so while revelation may be "closed," I am not so confident that our human understanding has fully apprehended the mysteries of the Incarnation, life, death and Resurrection of the Lord.[/quote] The bridal language is not an early Church understanding? The people of Israel is referred to as married to God even in the OT, so the imagery is not new at all..
[quote]If God can become Incarnate and be fully present in the Blessed Sacrament, why hold so tightly to the notion that God can only work through human males to provide the sacraments?[/quote]The Church can only go by what has been revealed, we can speculate about why and what ifs till the Second Coming, but we can only do what has been handed down through the Apostles. [quote]Didn't a human woman provide the physical material of which Jesus was made- why isn't that seen as evidence that God works sacramentally through women?[/quote]Most of the bread used for Eucharist is made by nuns, so God does work through women, just not in exactly the same way.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

double post

Edited November 28, 2007 by PopeClementI(MorClemis)

[carrdero]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1425940' date='Nov 27 2007, 09:42 PM']You see, the problem with your stance is that it leaves Jesus and His Apostles behind as unenlightened ogres..[/quote]
Unenlightened ogres is harsh. I prefer to think of them as primitive and credulous.

There are still some religions that have not caught up with the times and though for many years in our history it was difficult for women to be heard or to obtain the same rights as their male counterparts. Many decades women had to fight and struggle to receive equal opportunities as men. Some still see women as unequal to men in certain responsibilities and positions. This kind of thinking can only be described as archaic.

I have participated in other debates on this subject and I have yet to be see anyone produce infallible evidence or explain satisfactorily, the qualifying factor that would make a woman unsuitable for the same opportunity or position as a male priest. What is it exactly that a woman has or that a woman is missing that would prevent her from entering or being ordained into any priesthood?

Edited November 28, 2007 by carrdero

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

A woman is missing nothing as a person, there is simply a lack of Apostolic mandate and the Church cannot do what has not been revealed.
If you want to look at the priesthood as a job, where one compares the resumé of a man and woman - I'm sure there are some women who are more than qualified on paper than a particular man. But unlike protestant communities, the Catholic-Orthodox Church cannot do what neither Christ nor the Apostles have done.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426150' date='Nov 28 2007, 03:41 AM']I have participated in other debates on this subject and I have yet to be see anyone produce infallible evidence or explain satisfactorily, the qualifying factor that would make a woman unsuitable for the same opportunity or position as a male priest. What is it exactly that a woman has or that a woman is missing that would prevent her from entering or being ordained into any priesthood?[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1425927' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:08 PM']lol nice



not sure...I've brought it up with the school chaplain and he describes it as "wacky"...he even said he "might" approach the teacher(s) in question, but I'm not sure that anything has actually happened. I talked to the chaplain about 2 1/2 months ago, so if nothing has happened since then I'm not sure that anythign will happen.

One of the teachers who said we would have women priests within our lifetimes also said "every year parents call and tell me I'm a bad Catholic, and how could I possible tell kids the things I do, and I shouldn't be telling kids things contrary to the tradition that they grew up with. I just tell the truth and my relationship with God is my own, I don't really care what they say."

anyway didymus, thanks tons for the paper. Would it be ok for me to show a couple people your arguments/ sources?[/quote]
The Teacher's job is not to give her feelings and interpretations. It is to teach what is in the curriculum. If I was to work at a Jewish private school, I would have to teach the Jewish law, history, belief and not give my Catholic stance, despite the fact it's right. It's not my place in the classroom. If I don't like it, I can leave. Same goes w/ the teacher. The teacher can get out if following rubricks is unsatisfactory.

[carrdero]

[quote]Pope Clement writes: A woman is missing nothing as a person, there is simply a lack of Apostolic mandate and the Church cannot do what has not been revealed.[/quote]
Nor am I insinuating that churches spurn or belittle women but if a woman wants [b][i]the experience [/i][/b]of becoming part of the priesthood this is denied because...why?
Faith is a precarious support to begin with and I would presume that this includes the maintaining of any form of prejudice.

[quote]Pope Clement writes: If you want to look at the priesthood as a job, where one compares the resumé of a man and woman - I'm sure there are some women who are more than qualified on paper than a particular man. But unlike protestant communities, the Catholic-Orthodox Church cannot do what neither Christ nor the Apostles have done.[/quote]

I look onto an individual's ministry or the priesthood as a purposeful calling, a valid experience that should be available for any person who is committed and ready to devote their life for such a cause or occurrence and I believe that GOD would not set this privilege aside for just a particular race, creed, color or gender.

Edited November 28, 2007 by carrdero

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Lena' post='1425747' date='Nov 27 2007, 02:43 PM']So, since I'm seriously looking for answers and not trying to debate the matter---is that what it comes down to? that male priests are the only ones that can be priests because only a male can validate the Eucharist?[/quote]
No, my point was that only validly ordained priests (which a woman cannot be) can consecrate the Eucharist, so while it may be true that a woman would be more kind, compassionate, understanding, and a better homilist, it's really all irrelevant because she still couldn't celebrate the Mass.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426287' date='Nov 28 2007, 12:44 PM']Faith is a precarious support to begin with and I would presume that this includes the maintaining of any form of prejudice.[/quote]
It has nothing to do with prejudice. Men and women are equal. They are, however, also different, with different callings, roles, and gifts.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1426287' date='Nov 28 2007, 12:44 PM']Nor am I insinuating that churches spurn or belittle women but if a woman wants [b][i]the experience [/i][/b]of becoming part of the priesthood this is denied because...why?[/quote]If a man wants "the experience" of motherhood, why is this impossible? Why can't a human "experience" tree-ness? Why can't an adult "experience" baby-ness?
[quote]Faith is a precarious support to begin with and I would presume that this includes the maintaining of any form of prejudice.[/quote]I'd like to see you attend a worship service celebrated by Rev. Rover, if you think it's ridiculous, that's just your form of prejudice. Everyone has prejudices, mine are a preference for high Mass in English - however, that prejudice is not a requirement for everyone to celebrate Mass to my liking. However, neither the Catholic nor Orthodox Churches can ordain women to the priesthood, no matter how much or how little each individual would like. The order of Deaconess is an option that should be explored, however, all this useless talk of priesthood distracts from something that is actually a concrete possibility.
[quote]I look onto an individual's ministry or the priesthood as a purposeful calling, a valid experience that should be available for any person who is committed and ready to devote their life for such a cause or occurrence and I believe that GOD would not set this privilege aside for just a particular race, creed, color or gender.[/quote]Don't forget 'sexual orientation'.. must have forgotten that one? An ordained ministry is one that the whole community is called into, not just the person who feels a call - if the individual doesn't get the community's confirmation, perhaps the calling is to something slightly different. The person who won't explore the other options that God is calling them to seems to me to be very stubborn and unable to be flexible.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1426320' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:28 PM']The order of Deaconess is an option that should be explored, however, all this useless talk of priesthood distracts from something that is actually a concrete possibility.[/quote]

Women can't be deacons, either...at least not ordained deacons. The form you speak of has never been a sacramental diaconate.