Reforming The Ordinary Form With Prayers From The Extraordinary Form

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='31 August 2009 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1251750986' post='1958980']
Sean .... I had some questions after reading your posts on pg. 1 of this thread:


If anyone has the offertory from the OF and the EF readily at hand, can they post it so that we may compare the two? I am interested to see what the differences are.
[/quote]

The first offertory prayer is the offering of the bread. In the EF this prayer (translated) reads:
"Accept, O holy Father, almighty and everlasting God, this unspotted host which I, Your unworthy servant, offer unto You, my living and true God, for my innumerable sins, offenses and negligences, as also for those here present and for all faithful Christians, both living and dead, that it may avail me and them unto life everlasting. Amen."

The corresponding prayer in the OF, a completely new composition, (translated) reads:
"Priest: Blessed are You, Lord God of all creation,
for through your goodness we have received
the bread which we offer You:
fruit of the earth and work of human hands,
it will become for us the bread of life."


The next prayer is that which is said when the water and wine are poured into the chalice. In the EF this prayer is as follows:
"O God, Who in creating human nature have wonderfully dignified it and still more wonderfully have reformed it, grant that by the mystery of this water and wine we may come to share in the the divinity of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity, Your Son our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, throughout all ages of ages. Amen."

The corresponding prayer in the OF is an abbreviation of the same prayer:
"By the mystery of this water and wine
may we come to share in the divinity of Him
who humbled Himself to share in our humanity.


The offering of the chalice. The version in the EF:
"We offer unto You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching You mercy, that it may ascend before Your divine majesty as a sweet odor for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen."

The OF version of this prayer, much like the prayer offering the bread, is a completely new composition:
"Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation,
for through Your goodness we have received
the wine which we offer You:
fruit of the vine and work of human hands
it will become our spiritual drink."


The prayer for humility, which follows the prayer offering the chalice, is the same both in the EF and in the OF:
"With humble spirit and contrite heart
may we be accepted by you, O Lord,
and may our sacrifice in your sight this day
be pleasing to you, Lord God."


The next prayer, which asks the Holy Spirit's blessing upon the bread and wine, exists only in the EF:
"Come, Sanctifier, almighty eternal God, bless this sacrifice prepared for Your holy name.


At High Mass in the EF there follow various prayer which accompany the incensing that I am going to omit here.


The following prayer is prayed in the EF while the priest washes his hands:
"I will wash my hands among the innocent, and I will encompass Thine Altar, O Lord.
That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works.
I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth.
Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked, nor my life with men of blood.
In whose hands are iniquities, their right hand is filled with gifts.
But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me.
My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord.
Glory be to the Father..."

This is the corresponding prayer in the OF:
"Wash me, O Lord, from my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin."


The next prayer in the EF, one that I find particularly important, has no corresponding prayer in the OF:
"Receive, O Holy Trinity, this oblation which we offer to You in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of the blessed Mary ever-virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the Saints; that it may be available to their honor and our salvation: and that they may vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven, whose memory we celebrate on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.


This prayer is the same both in the EF and OF:
"Priest: Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the almighty Father.
People: May the Lord receive this sacrifice at you hands, to the praise and glory of His name, both to our benefit and that of all His holy Church."


The final offertory prayer is the secret (known in the OF as the prayer over the gifts). This prayer is variable.

[phatcatholic]

Thank you, Resurrexi! That was very helpful.

[phatcatholic]

After reading over the two offertories, I'm not sure if I agree with the notion that the offertory of the OF could be easily said by any Protestant denomination, or that it denies the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Does the OF not, in two places, refer to that very sacrifice?

Prayer at the Preparation of the Gifts:

[indent]"With humble spirit and contrite heart
may we be accepted by you, O Lord,
and may our [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] in your sight this day
be pleasing to you, Lord God."[/indent]
The [i]Orate, fratres[/i] and [i]Suscipiat Dominus[/i]:

[indent][b]Priest:[/b] Pray, brethren, that my [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] and yours may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
[b]People:[/b] May the Lord accept the [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his holy Church.[/indent]
Perhaps there is something blatantly obvious that I am missing?

[phatcatholic]

Interesting article on the current Offertory:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=438

I was surprised to see it featured at Catholic Online, and ashamed to admit that I never realized the rather hum-drum nature that the Offertory has taken on in the OF until I read that article.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='31 August 2009 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1251756695' post='1959040']
After reading over the two offertories, I'm not sure if I agree with the notion that the offertory of the OF could be easily said by any Protestant denomination, or that it denies the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Does the OF not, in two places, refer to that very sacrifice?

Prayer at the Preparation of the Gifts:

[indent]"With humble spirit and contrite heart
may we be accepted by you, O Lord,
and may our [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] in your sight this day
be pleasing to you, Lord God."[/indent]
The [i]Orate, fratres[/i] and [i]Suscipiat Dominus[/i]:

[indent][b]Priest:[/b] Pray, brethren, that my [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] and yours may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
[b]People:[/b] May the Lord accept the [b][i]sacrifice[/i][/b] at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his holy Church.[/indent]
Perhaps there is something blatantly obvious that I am missing?
[/quote]

I certainly would not say that the references to sacrifice are completely eliminated from the OF offertory, but I would say there definitely are fewer such references.

[Resurrexi]

By the way, if you are ever interested in comparing prayers from the OF with prayers from the EF in the future, you should take a look at [url="http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AkmNWEqPKCS4J%3Agorpub.freeshell.org%2Fmassland.pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pli=1"]this[/url].

[goldenchild17]

I just noticed that I had posted here back in 07 and thought I might give my updated thoughts

I haven't read enough of Ratzinger/Benedict to get a full understanding, but I didn't come across this portion (thanks to a friend) that may give his thought on the matter:

[quote]Nevertheless I believe that in the long term the Roman church once again must have only one Roman rite. In practice, the existence of two official rights would be difficult for bishops and priests to ‘manage.’ The Roman rite of the future should be one, celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular, but completely in the tradition of the rite that was handed down to us. This could include some new elements that have been experienced as valid such as the new feasts, some new prefaces for Mass, an extended lectionary — with more choices than before, but not too many — a ‘oratio fidelium,’ that is, a fixed litany of intercessions that follow the ‘Oremus’ before the offertory, which is where it had been placed.[/quote] (If someone else knows this passage and can provide the source that would be helpful, I can't remember yet)


I think in the future, if Pope Benedict lives long enough to implement his changes, that he is going to try and make it so that there is only one Mass/sacraments of the Roman rite. Which makes most sense to me considering I don't know of any Rite of the Church that has more than one type of Mass, other than the Roman in recent decades. I think he is going to try and give us a Mass that is based mostly on the Tridentine, but with elements from the Novus Ordo that are deemed worthy.

So my answer is that I think we should wait and see what happens, but I do think it to be Benedict's intention to get rid of the Novus Ordo and Tridentine as separate masses and give us a mass that would be more of a natural progression from the ancient traditions, as changes to the Mass normally are. Yet this Mass, while retaining its natural growth and basis from the Tridentine will have elements from the Novus Ordo that Benedict feels are good. And it can possibly be either in Latin or the vernacular, which I really don't see a problem with anymore.

So maybe, if this is indeed the intention, this thread might be better named: Reforming the Extra-ordinary with prayers/things from the Ordinary... Personally I'd much prefer this happening instead of changing the Ordinary with parts from the EF

Edited August 31, 2009 by goldenchild17

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='31 August 2009 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1251760214' post='1959074']
By the way, if you are ever interested in comparing prayers from the OF with prayers from the EF in the future, you should take a look at [url="http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AkmNWEqPKCS4J%3Agorpub.freeshell.org%2Fmassland.pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pli=1"]this[/url].
[/quote]
A nice side-by-side comparison.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='31 August 2009 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1251760214' post='1959074']
By the way, if you are ever interested in comparing prayers from the OF with prayers from the EF in the future, you should take a look at [url="http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AkmNWEqPKCS4J%3Agorpub.freeshell.org%2Fmassland.pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pli=1"]this[/url].
[/quote]
By "Tridentine Missal" exactly what missal is being referred to? I'm guessing it's not the one of Pope John XXIII? If not, what are the difference between the Missal being used in this document and the Missal we use today when we celebrate the EF?

[Aloysius]

it appears to have a 1958 missal as its source, which is the same as the 1962 missal (of John XIII) except for the second confiteor (which is actually still used in many extraordinary form celebrations anyway).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='01 September 2009 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1251822743' post='1959411']
it appears to have a 1958 missal as its source, which is the same as the 1962 missal (of John XIII) except for the second confiteor (which is actually still used in many extraordinary form celebrations anyway).
[/quote]

Aloysius hath returned!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 September 2009 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1251855674' post='1959669']
Aloysius hath returned!


[/quote]
This calls for a party!!!

Tomorrow I shall have a celebratory cappuccino in the morning, and a celebratory pita at lunch time. While consuming said celebratory items, I shall in mine own mind create a jovial and generally carefree ditty with unintelligible lyrics and a melody that will probably be inconsistent and unrepeatable (seeing as it exists only in my mind). When I have finished with the Celebratory Song, I shall laugh out loud at a somewhat inappropriate moment in the conversation I will have been carrying on with my friend (who shall be eating a Celebratory Pita with me), and whence she has questioned me about my strange outburst, I shall feign ignorance while silently laughing at my cleverness and wit.

That is all.

[nowak.chris]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='01 September 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1251822743' post='1959411']
it appears to have a 1958 missal as its source, which is the same as the 1962 missal (of John XIII) except for the second confiteor (which is actually still used in many extraordinary form celebrations anyway).
[/quote]

The 1962 also added the name of Joseph to the Canon, and some changes to the calendar were made.

[Aloysius]

calendar changes don't affect the comparison in the site, but yeah this one lacks St. Joseph in the canon... it also includes the word "perfidious" which, of course, is better and more accurately translated as "faithless" in the prayer for the Jews which is not included in the 1962 missal; and that prayer is even more totally altered in the way it is said as the extraordinary form today... but I'm sure we've all heard all that news before

[OmniaInstaurareInChristo]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='01 September 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1251822743' post='1959411']
it appears to have a 1958 missal as its source, which is the same as the 1962 missal (of John XIII) except for the second confiteor (which is actually still used in many extraordinary form celebrations anyway).
[/quote]

The site is good, but, looking at it quickly, I did notice a couple of things.
In the 2nd confiteor, the one before communion, it is only the server -and the people in a dialogue Mass - who says it. Remember the priest has already received when the 2nd one is said. The priest just says the absolution. Also, during the priest's only confiteor (during the prayers at the foot of the altar), he says and to you brethern (et vobis fratres) where the server says and to you Father (et tibi pater). He also says and you brethern (et vos fratres) where the server says and you Father (et te pater).
At least at one time it was thought that during the prayers at the foot of the altar, the first was the priest's and the next was the server's. The one before communion was the people's. I have also heard it argued that the one the server says during the prayers at the foot of the altar was also the people's. In a non dialogue Mass the server is thought to be speaking for the congregation.