Reforming The Ordinary Form With Prayers From The Extraordinary Form

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1426902' date='Nov 29 2007, 08:04 PM']I am somewhat hoping that the Latin Church loosens up on it's uniformity. The allowance of a wider use of the other Western Rites - Carthusian, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Sarum/AnglicanUse, and even the various monastic uses encourage organic development. Centrality tends to suppress it - I suppose this can only be a long-term goal, since these first have to be learned and only then can they develop.

For example, I don't see why the US can't be majority Sarum/Anglican Use, since it is English and is very high-Church and just as Catholic.

Any thoughts?[/quote]
I'm with you on that. I think that the motu proprio will encourage a renewed interest in the traditional Ambrosian and Sarum rites and possibly the Dominican rite. I'm pessimistic about the Mozarabic rite since as far as I know the post-Conciliar liturgical reform basically killed the traditional Mozarabic rite (not the will of the Council btw), but who knows. I've read recently that the Milanese have been making requests for more of the traditional Ambrosian rite but the current bishop is resistant. It may take a while, but I believe that the Dominicans will eventually return to their traditional liturgy (Mass and Breviary), but after the Council they first experimented with "modernizing" their liturgy and finally opted to abandon it in favor of the novus odo. I've never seen the traditional Dominican rite in action but from studying the ordinary, rubrics and some of the propers I must confess that I find this rite (or use, if you insist) to be eloquent and brilliant. It is an phat example of the genius of traditional Western liturgy. Hopefully it will be possible in the not too distant future to find Dominican run parishes that live the liturgical life according to these rites.

[jeffpugh]

Wow, there are many rites in the Latin tradition. That's crazy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1469589' date='Feb 26 2008, 10:52 PM']Wow, there are many rites in the Latin tradition. That's crazy.[/quote]
If you comb through the "Phat Liturgies" thread in Transmundane you can find videos and/or pictures of several Western rites.

[Resurrexi]

I voted "yes" on all three questions.

[jeffpugh]

You would

[Resurrexi]

Laudate_Dominum should really start posting here again.

[InHisLove726]

I answered "yes" to all three. I attended my first ever Latin Mass last month and cried with joy at the reverence given to the Blessed Sacrament. I think the prayers in Latin are much more beautiful than the prayers in the vernacular. It took some getting used to at first, since I grew up in the Novus Ordo, but I loved the Mass very much. This month, I am planning to attend another Latin Mass hosted at a historical Church every 1st and 3rd Sunday of every month. Unfortunately, I am scheduled to serve as EMHC tomorrow, so I can't attend the Latin Mass but I am not scheduled to serve on the 3rd Sunday! I'm looking forward to attending another one!

[Christie_M]

(sorry, bumping this for the spammers)

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Christie_M' post='1938605' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:14 AM'](sorry, bumping this for the spammers)[/quote]

You could have shared your views instead.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='InHisLove726' post='1938258' date='Aug 1 2009, 07:26 PM']I answered "yes" to all three. I attended my first ever Latin Mass last month and cried with joy at the reverence given to the Blessed Sacrament. I think the prayers in Latin are much more beautiful than the prayers in the vernacular. It took some getting used to at first, since I grew up in the Novus Ordo, but I loved the Mass very much. This month, I am planning to attend another Latin Mass hosted at a historical Church every 1st and 3rd Sunday of every month. Unfortunately, I am scheduled to serve as EMHC tomorrow, so I can't attend the Latin Mass but I am not scheduled to serve on the 3rd Sunday! I'm looking forward to attending another one![/quote]
The OF is a Latin mass

I hear ya. My first EF mass was the past lent. My second was about 4 weeks ago (it was a "low" mass. I ate it up though ).

[quote name='Christie_M' post='1938605' date='Aug 2 2009, 01:14 AM'](sorry, bumping this for the spammers)[/quote]
You're mean.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1939141' date='Aug 2 2009, 05:02 PM']The OF is a Latin mass [/quote]

Obviously the OF is a Mass of the Roman Rite; however, most OF Masses are not said in Latin.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1939326' date='Aug 2 2009, 10:02 PM']Obviously the OF is a Mass of the Roman Rite; however, most OF Masses are not said in Latin.[/quote]
They are supposed to be. English is an allowance that was not supposed to have turned to vernacularism.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1939445' date='Aug 2 2009, 10:24 PM']They are supposed to be. English is an allowance that was not supposed to have turned to vernacularism.[/quote]

I agree with this. Practically speaking, however, the majority of OF Masses are in the vernacular.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1939445' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:24 AM']They are supposed to be. English is an allowance that was not supposed to have turned to vernacularism.[/quote]
I don't usually get the opportunity to attend Mass at the Cathedral, but the OF is celebrated in Latin there.

[phatcatholic]

Sean .... I had some questions after reading your posts on pg. 1 of this thread:

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='28 November 2007 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1196267237' post='1426240']I'm sure anyone who reads the offertory of the extraordinary form along side the ordinary form's grace before meals will sense that we are dealing with a most striking departure from our liturgical tradition.[/quote]
If anyone has the offertory from the OF and the EF readily at hand, can they post it so that we may compare the two? I am interested to see what the differences are.



[quote]Somewhat in defense of the change (rupture really) I would mention that of all the parts of the Mass the offertory is probably one of the most complicated when it comes to questions of liturgical restoration.[/quote]
Why is that?



[quote]In spite of the historical documentation I think a casual glance at Anglican and Lutheran rituals would be evidence enough that the new grace before meals is designed in such a way that even Protestants could pray it without offense.[/quote]
This makes me want to read the two offertories even more.



[quote]I have been collecting scholarly journals from the 1960's and 70's for a while now and have learned a great deal about what the people involved were up to from their own mouths. It is not uncommon to encounter articles defending the explicit Protestantization of Catholic worship (including the idea that the Mass should be Protestantized so that we can all worship together), denials of the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist as defined by Trent, attacks on the nature of the priesthood that culminate in the idea of lay people celebrating Mass, et cetera, et cetera. One might say that this is to be expected as such things can be found in today's liberal journals (although certainly with less optimism and enthusiasm), but the point is that I'm talking about articles by the key scholars who were members or advisors to the consilium! Surely the consilium was a mixed bag, but it is easy to get at a core group of figures who were most influential and then it becomes most telling to read what they were discussing when they weren't busy revising the Catholic Mass. Anyway, I think the ecumenical dimension sheds some light on many of the decisions of the consilium.[/quote]
I think what troubles me the most about all of this is that the consilium was allowed by the pope to have their philosophies realized in the Mass. I mean, essentially, that is the conclusion we must come to. They "bastardized" the offertory, denied the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist, made the Mass more Protestant and ecumenical .... and the pope (or rather, the Congregation responsible for approving what they created) read it over and said, "Looks good, fellas!" It is very difficult for me to accept the fact that something that was so obviously a rupture from our liturgical tradition was allowed to become the actual liturgy that we celebrate. If everything that you are saying is true, then Pope Paul VI is just as culpable for what we have now then the consilium is.



[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='28 November 2007 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1196277392' post='1426351']2. The ordinary form (the subject of this thread) is, in the words of the key scholars involved, a [i]reconstruction[/i] of the Roman rite. As such I think that the question of organic development is radically apposite and that the prior form, as handed down by tradition, provides a benchmark by which to evaluate the fidelity of the new rites and discuss whether or not there are elements of rupture or inauthenticity in these rites which ought to be corrected. The liturgical renewal called for by the Council is still apparently a work in progress in the eyes of Rome (see for example Pope John Paul II, [i]Vicesimus Quintus Annus[/i] 23) and surely our current Pope has written much on the need to "reform the reform."[/quote]
That the renewal called for by the Council is still a work in progress is perhaps THE silver lining in this discussion. This means that there is hope that things can get better.



[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='28 November 2007 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1196278677' post='1426354']Let us also not forget that vernacularism is a grave heresy that has been repeatedly condemned by the Church.[/quote]
How do you define "vernacularism" and in what documents has it been repeatedly condemned?



[quote]It is also related to why I believe restoring the [i]Kyrie [/i]to its original status (it is not a penitential rite) and reviving a sung litany at this point of the liturgy based on traditional sources would have been superior to the improvised and rather awkward prayers of the faithful that we ended up with.[/quote]
What was the original status of the [i]Kyrie[/i]?



[quote]I believe such things could have been done in a way consistent with organic development and authentic restoration as opposed to novel reconstruction. Although I must say that I see zero precedence (prior to the 1960's) for such wide scale liturgical reform in the first place and certainly not for the promulgation of a new order of Mass with the radical suppression of the previous and most venerable rites (a tragedy that the current Pope has worked to correct). Liturgy is by nature traditional and I see the revolutionary approach to liturgical renewal as being flawed in principle.[/quote]
That is why the reform of the reform must be such a slow and painful process. I dare say we'll all be dead and gone before the OF is finally brought into continuity with (or greater continuity with) our liturgical tradition. I don't think that the cure of the revolutionary approach of the OF is another revolutionary approach. I'm not necessarily saying that you are advocating a revolutionary approach to the OF, but I know that some people do. If it was up to them, the OF would be crumpled up and thrown in the trash. But that I think would be just as revolutionary as the very approach that they condemn.

In closing, I should point out that I am not intending to disagree with you here or say that you are in error in what you have written. I am attempting simply to understand you better. I definitely have a long way to go before I can say I have even a remedial grasp of all that is involved in this discussion. I can say this troubles me greatly.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic