Reforming The Ordinary Form With Prayers From The Extraordinary Form

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1426902' date='Nov 29 2007, 06:04 PM']I am somewhat hoping that the Latin Church loosens up on it's uniformity. The allowance of a wider use of the other Western Rites - Carthusian, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Sarum/AnglicanUse, and even the various monastic uses encourage organic development. Centrality tends to suppress it - I suppose this can only be a long-term goal, since these first have to be learned and only then can they develop.

For example, I don't see why the US can't be majority Sarum/Anglican Use, since it is English and is very high-Church and just as Catholic.

Any thoughts?[/quote]

The the Sarum and Anglican Uses are radically different. The Sarum Use was form of the traditional Roman Mass, while the Anglican Use is a form of the Miss promulgated in 1969. To demonstrate the differences, see the texts of Beach:

The Sarum Use
[url="http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm"]http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm[/url]

The Anglican Use
[url="http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html"]http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html[/url]

BTW, L_D, your posts were awesome and very informative as usual.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

Yes the Sarum and Anglican Use are different, the reason I group them together have to do with cultural and communal reasons, as the groups that would mainly use them are of English and/or ex-Anglican extraction, which is why I hypothesize that it would be (or at least would have been) a good fit for the Latin Church in America (at least in Anglo-Saxon areas such as New England, etc).

[Resurrexi]

The Sarum Use doesn't exist anymore. On a very rare occasion (such as maybe once every few years) it is celebrated in England, but never in the United States.

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

The Sarum Rite is celebrated regularly by some Western Rite Orthodox under ROCOR. There are also very few 'Continuing Anglicans' who celebrate it.

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1426989' date='Nov 29 2007, 09:22 PM']The Sarum Use doesn't exist anymore. On a very rare occasion (such as maybe once every few years) it is celebrated in England, but never in the United States.[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427119' date='Nov 29 2007, 10:49 PM']The Sarum Rite is celebrated regularly by some Western Rite Orthodox under ROCOR. There are also very few 'Continuing Anglicans' who celebrate it.[/quote]

I don't usually take it into consideration illicit Masses and invalid services.

[journeyman]

I shall defer to the more learned members of the phamily in matters of development and appropriateness of the liturgy.

Pope Benedict XVI has provided the laity with a clear choice in forms of liturgy. In the grand old American tradition, the people may now vote with their feet.

If St. Thomas More is correct, the 1962 (extraordinary) form will overwhelm the ordinary form. Despite their best efforts, the US Bishops will notice.

Let them then exercise their pastoral role as shepherd for the flock through service; one such service may be providing their priests and faithful with a liturgy which appropriately balances the concepts of sacrifice and communion.

[jeffpugh]

L_D, that was some phat posting goin on there... I have a few questions to ask, but I'll PM you (if I remember them tomorrow).
[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1426927' date='Nov 29 2007, 07:57 PM']The the Sarum and Anglican Uses are radically different. The Sarum Use was form of the traditional Roman Mass, while the Anglican Use is a form of the Miss promulgated in 1969. To demonstrate the differences, see the texts of Beach:

The Sarum Use
[url="http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm"]http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm[/url]

The Anglican Use
[url="http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html"]http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html[/url]

BTW, L_D, your posts were awesome and very informative as usual. [/quote]
The link to the Sarum right doesn't work for me. Any other links? I've never heard of it... where did it come from?
This thread is turning out to be really interesting....

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1428446' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:17 PM']L_D, that was some phat posting goin on there... I have a few questions to ask, but I'll PM you (if I remember them tomorrow).

The link to the Sarum right doesn't work for me. Any other links? I've never heard of it... where did it come from?
This thread is turning out to be really interesting....[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm[/url]

[jeffpugh]

Thanks, man.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1426927' date='Nov 29 2007, 07:57 PM']The the Sarum and Anglican Uses are radically different. The Sarum Use was form of the traditional Roman Mass, while the Anglican Use is a form of the Miss promulgated in 1969. To demonstrate the differences, see the texts of Beach:

The Sarum Use
[url="http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm"]http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/English.htm[/url]

The Anglican Use
[url="http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html"]http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html[/url]

BTW, L_D, your posts were awesome and very informative as usual. [/quote]
Ahh... just came back to this for a couple of comments one... "ahh... when the mass was in English (sort of stealing this quote from an Anglican-turned-Catholic)", and... I find the sarum mass interesting (the link works now)... especially how they prayed for the king after the Pope and ordinary. Where did this mass originate? And was it in Latin before? Or was it always in a vernacular text?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1430892' date='Dec 7 2007, 06:45 PM']Ahh... just came back to this for a couple of comments one... "ahh... when the mass was in English (sort of stealing this quote from an Anglican-turned-Catholic)", and... I find the sarum mass interesting (the link works now)... especially how they prayed for the king after the Pope and ordinary. Where did this mass originate? And was it in Latin before? Or was it always in a vernacular text?[/quote]

The Sarum was never in the vernacular: I posted a link to a translation.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The Sarum rite is in the same liturgical family as the Tridentine Roman rite (Missal of Pope Pius V and so on) and they have common roots going back over a thousand years. It was the local rite of the diocese of Salisbury and being ancient and venerable it was not abrogated following Trent. During the Protestant revolt in England the Sarum rite largely provided the foundation for the Anglican liturgy.

I've seen a video clip on youtube of the Sarum rite in action.. Let me see if I can find it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs[/url]

[jeffpugh]

Nice, but there are some comments that need some adressing... meh, it's everywhere though. Anywho, was that valid? And where is the tabernacle?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1433901' date='Dec 13 2007, 03:15 PM']Nice, but there are some comments that need some adressing... meh, it's everywhere though. Anywho, was that valid? And where is the tabernacle?[/quote]
I don't have many answers on this but I believe that was the Sarum Mass of Fr. Sean Finnegan at Oxford some years ago. I don't know where the tabernacle is but it may be that this chapel at Oxford doesn't have one. It may also be that the traditional altar setup for the Sarum rite does not include the tabernacle on the altar. I really don't know and tend to see this as a feature of the chapel and not necessarily a statement about the Sarum rite.

[url="http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2006/10/some-images-of-sarum-use.html"]http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.c...-sarum-use.html[/url]

Since the priest is a Catholic priest I'm sure the Mass was valid but I don't know if it was licit. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and suppose that it was.

I love how the priest keeps his arms in a cruciform posture after the consecration.

[img]http://www.execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/sarum7.jpg[/img]