More Than One Pro-life Issue?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1423200' date='Nov 21 2007, 06:54 AM']The other prolife issues listed by the bishops are racism, torture, euthanasia and embryonic stem-cell research.[/quote]
I would add affordable healthcare that some people need, reducing pollution, fighting crime--particularly violent crime and substance abuse that can lead to death/more violent crime.

[Didymus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423610' date='Nov 22 2007, 10:22 AM']There isnt much anyone can do about abortion at the federal level[/quote]

so Planned Parenthood, the nations [i]largest[/i] abortion provider, making a significant amount of their annual profit from Federal tax dollars isn't an issue that needs to be addressed?

Edited November 22, 2007 by Didymus

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1423754' date='Nov 22 2007, 04:58 PM']so Planned Parenthood, the nations [i]largest[/i] abortion provider, making a significant amount of their annual profit from Federal tax dollars isn't an issue that needs to be addressed?[/quote]
Find someone to address it then! I don't see anyone doing it.

There are ideals and there is reality.

[XIX]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 06:18 PM']That's all fine and dandy. But for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not. For people who have hard lives, who live from paycheck to paycheck, one more life saved from abortion doesnt matter. Im not trying to be insensitive, I'm being realistic. People care about how politicians will help them, not if they're "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Sometimes, you need to be more realistic. Life matters, but remember that life isn't just those who are waiting to be born.[/quote]
What?

I'm sorry, maybe it's the tryptophan, but I honestly don't see how that's even related to the topic or to my post. Yes, a lot of people don't care about abortion. So? That doesn't have anything to do with whether abortion is in fact important. It doesn't even belong in the same conversation. It's completely off topic.

Please explain yourself a little better? Right now I can't extrapolate a single relevant point from you.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='XIX' post='1423768' date='Nov 22 2007, 05:59 PM']What?

I'm sorry, maybe it's the tryptophan, but I honestly don't see how that's even related to the topic or to my post. Yes, a lot of people don't care about abortion. So? That doesn't have anything to do with whether abortion is in fact important. It doesn't even belong in the same conversation. It's completely off topic.

Please explain yourself a little better? Right now I can't extrapolate a single relevant point from you.[/quote]
It does relate. I'm pointing out that to everyday working Americans, abortion isn't an important issue. Elected officials are responsible to serve the public. I agree that life is important, and phasing out abortion is necessary, but those who focus on abortion as the sole determining factor of who they vote for aren't doing the country justice because the day to day lives of Americans arent affected by whether or not abortion is illegal.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 03:18 PM']Life matters, but remember that life isn't just those who are waiting to be born.[/quote]
So like your point would include how it is hard to care about someone else's concieved egg when you are worried about having food for your own children?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1423839' date='Nov 22 2007, 11:41 PM']So like your point would include how it is hard to care about someone else's concieved egg when you are worried about having food for your own children?[/quote]
That and how can someone go around saying they defend life while fighting agaisnt abortions when they forget about everyone else and their lives? Life starts at conception, but doesnt end until death. What about everyone else?

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 06:18 PM']That's all fine and dandy. But for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not. For people who have hard lives, who live from paycheck to paycheck, one more life saved from abortion doesnt matter. Im not trying to be insensitive, I'm being realistic. People care about how politicians will help them, not if they're "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Sometimes, you need to be more realistic. Life matters, but remember that life isn't just those who are waiting to be born.[/quote]
Excuse me, pal, but pro-lifers [i]are[/i] real people with real problems. Plenty of them probably have more serious "real-world" problems to deal with in their lives than you. I don't know where you got the idea that all people who care about ending abortion are sitting around eating bon-bons in some idyllic world removed from the problems of the "real world." Many of us are far from rich.

Sorry bubba, but if you care nothing about the millions of innocent babies being murdered, that says more about you and your callous and self-centered attitude than it does against pro-lifers.

I know many strongly pro-life people who I'm sure have done [i]far[/i] more to help other people in this life than you have. This nonsense insinuating that pro-lifers don't care about anyone once they are born is nothing but pure rot.

And blaming pro-life voters for all our problems in the country is one of the stupidest things I've heard lately.
I've seen nothing to convince me that everything will be so much better if only we elect more pro-abortion politicians to office.

I'm not seeing much in the way of actual argumentation here from you, only bitter emotional rants.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423676' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:24 PM']Is George Bush your figurehead and symbol of these methods? Yes, they have worked so well thus far...[/quote]

sorry, i don't understand what you are trying to say.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423744' date='Nov 22 2007, 04:18 PM']But for real people, with real problems, it doesn't matter if someone supports abortion or not.[/quote]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423779' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:14 PM']I'm pointing out that to everyday working Americans, abortion isn't an important issue.[/quote]

i would consider myself an everyday working American living paycheck to paycheck, and yes, abortion does matter: if a society can diminish the value of a single life for a perceived greater good (as you seem to be agreeing with), then the whole society begins to rot (as we are seeing in this country). What is more important than protecting all life?

also, you haven't responded to either of Socrates' posts.

[Adrestia]

This is a very familiar conversation.

Can "we" disagree about whether legality is the most important issue while still working together to reduce the desire for abortion? Can we work with pro-choice individuals who also want to improve the lives of mothers and fathers that choose life? Or does our passion about about the legality hinder our ability to work with others?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1424098' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:23 PM']I don't know where you got the idea that all people who care about ending abortion are sitting around eating bon-bons in some idyllic world removed from the problems of the "real world."[/quote]
Never said that.

[quote]Sorry bubba, but if you care nothing about the millions of innocent babies being murdered, that says more about you and your callous and self-centered attitude than it does against pro-lifers.[/quote]
Never said I didnt care about the babies. But they aren't my top priority. Sorry. If that makes you think Im callous, oh well.

[quote]This nonsense insinuating that pro-lifers don't care about anyone once they are born is nothing but pure rot.[/quote]
I wouldnt be insinuating something unless I saw basis. My point is that the pro-life movement quite often comes off as not caring about anyone but the babies. It may not be true, but reputations speak volumes.

[quote]And blaming pro-life voters for all our problems in the country is one of the stupidest things I've heard lately.
I've seen nothing to convince me that everything will be so much better if only we elect more pro-abortion politicians to office.[/quote]
It's okay, i think a lot of what you say is complete bull too. I'm glad the feeling is mutual.

I never said everything would be okay. Im upset that most of you will disregard a cantidate because they are pro-choice. I don't think everything is that black and white. Good thing I'm not catholic, but that means I'm allowed to disagree.

[quote]I'm not seeing much in the way of actual argumentation here from you, only bitter emotional rants.[/quote]You see what you want to see.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1424103' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:39 PM']sorry, i don't understand what you are trying to say.
i would consider myself an everyday working American living paycheck to paycheck, and yes, abortion does matter: if a society can diminish the value of a single life for a perceived greater good (as you seem to be agreeing with), then the whole society begins to rot (as we are seeing in this country). What is more important than protecting all life?[/quote]
Are you personally affected? That's my point. You may care, but whether or not another baby lives or dies, as sad as it is, doesn't affect you personally. If we only elect people based on whether they support abortion or not, we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Yes, abortion can be one issue to consider, but i think if you're only going to consider that, i'd rather you not waste your vote.

[quote]also, you haven't responded to either of Socrates' posts.[/quote]I choose not to due to the fact that many of the things he says come off as personal attacks.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1424114' date='Nov 23 2007, 09:30 PM']This is a very familiar conversation.

Can "we" disagree about whether legality is the most important issue while still working together to reduce the desire for abortion? Can we work with pro-choice individuals who also want to improve the lives of mothers and fathers that choose life? Or does our passion about about the legality hinder our ability to work with others?[/quote]
The answer ought to be yes we can work together. As Christians, I think we ought to work in a more holistic way for the betterment of society to promote life in all of its stages.

[XIX]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1423779' date='Nov 22 2007, 10:14 PM']It does relate. I'm pointing out that to everyday working Americans, abortion isn't an important issue. Elected officials are responsible to serve the public.[/quote]
That doesn't make any sense. Abortion is an issue that affects everybody in a direct and real way. If a stressed out family doesn't think about and/or doesn't care about the unborn, that doesn't affect the importance of the issue. Again, we are talking about what is actually important, not what people think is important or what people care about. I can say that I don't care about school, but my apathy doesn't make it any less important.

Besides, the unborn are Americans too, and part of the public that the elected officials are supposed to serve.
[quote]I agree that life is important, and phasing out abortion is necessary,[/quote]
Your posts say otherwise...you constantly emphasize helping people who are out of the womb over while making the unborn a "yeah...but" proposition. "Helping the unborn is important, but..."

I guess I'm the other way around. There are other important issues out there, but abortion is paramount. Life and death issues are, for obvious reasons, bigger than non-life and death issues. More people die from abortion that any other cause, and it's not even close. It's around one million per year. Abortion precedes every other issue--a great welfare program won't do anything to help you if you don't even make if out of the womb. Every other right literally disappears if you are denied the right to life, because obviously, you aren't alive to experience any of these other rights.

[quote]but those who focus on abortion as the sole determining factor of who they vote for aren't doing the country justice because the day to day lives of Americans arent affected by whether or not abortion is illegal.[/quote]
Everyone is affected by abortion. The economy suffers. Morality suffers. Hearts are broken. People slip into depression more easily. An entire generation is robbed of 25%f its population. (and by the way, 25% of the population is robbed of its ability to "live paycheck to paycheck.") These are all things that happen to most everybody in America.

And as far as your insinuation that the pro-life movement does not care about the already-born, that is a horrible myth and strawman that is obviously false to anybody who actually takes the time to observe pro-lifers. It's something people like to say about the pro-life movement in order to put us down. It's usually (not always) done in order to justify being against abortion but still vote democrat. And it's an accusation so false that it has to be considered laughable by the rest of us.

In reality, members of the pro-life movement are usually among the most social justice-conscious people in the world. A lot of people who are opposed to the pro-life movement like to talk about helping the poor. Pro-lifers just do it. Why? Because they have a high regard for life, and (gasp) want to defend life from womb to tomb. It's just that we see abortion as, by far, the greatest threat to life.

Regardless of whether a paycheck to paycheck family wants to acknowledge that threat or not.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Light and Truth' post='1424167' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:36 AM']The answer ought to be yes we can work together. As Christians, I think we ought to work in a more holistic way for the betterment of society to promote life in all of its stages.[/quote]"ought to be yes" but isn't.

One problem is people take this issue so very personally that they can't get past their own emotions! My old roommate (pro-choice) and I talked about this ad nauseam. Person A thinks that abortion must be outlawed before even considering any other issue. Person B thinks that other issues outweigh the legality abortion. Both persons A and B would like to see the desire for abortion reduced, but they are so personally insulted by each other that they choose not to even consider working together. Anyone else see pride rearing it's ugly head? I'm not excluding myself here... I know I struggle with pride every day.