The Rock

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1422212' date='Nov 19 2007, 03:47 PM']Augustine is not infallible.

Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.[/quote]
If I may be serious for a moment I must also point out that Augustine puts forth different interpretations of that passage in different writings. This is not to suggest that Augustine changed his mind, it is simply based on the fact that for Augustine the Scriptures may have different layers of meaning and more than one possible interpretation (which is not to suggest contradiction). The fact that in some place or another Augustine may have expounded upon the passage in terms of Christ being the rock (which is true) does not negate the fact that he believed the rock to be Peter (which is also true). Peter is not the rock because he is just that cool; he is the rock because Christ has established him so by His power through the will of the Father.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1422218' date='Nov 19 2007, 03:52 PM']If I may be serious for a moment I must also point out that Augustine puts forth different interpretations of that passage in different writings. This is not to suggest that Augustine changed his mind, it is simply based on the fact that for Augustine the Scriptures may have different layers of meaning and more than one possible interpretation (which is not to suggest contradiction). The fact that in some place or another Augustine may have expounded upon the passage in terms of Christ being the rock (which is true) does not negate the fact that he believed the rock to be Peter (which is also true).[/quote]
Yep, Scripture has a multiplicity of symbolism.

And please remember the sequence. Peter correctly answers who Jesus is -the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Jesus then says it was revealed to Peter by His heavenly Father and Jesus states" You are Peter, the Rock, on on this rock I will build my church". He then goes on to state he is giving him the keys of the Kingdom of heaven. This is putting Peter in charge. God reveals and Jesus confirms the action by changing Simons name and making him his right-hand man.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Pleural' post='1422206' date='Nov 19 2007, 03:40 PM']That still ignores the fact that Augustine's interpretation in this sermon was that the rock was Christ.
He said that Peter was named Peter after the true Rock, Christ, just as Christians are called Christians after the name of Christ.
You can't deny that that's what he said and say none of the church fathers had that interpretation. Why is it so difficult to accept?[/quote]
St. Augustine did not deny that Peter was the Rock, he simply clarifies that this was a role which came from Christ. Peter is the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Using Augustine to attempt to deny the Papacy and its Petrine origins is senseless, as Augustine was a firm believer in Papal Supremecy, as well as Papal succession from Peter, as the following quotes from Augustine attest:

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

It is clear where Augustine stood on this matter. Why is that so difficult to accept?

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

Christ is the Rock. Simon's confession is Truth. Christ gives Simon a name change. Christ gives Peter some characteristics of Rock-ness. The protestant argument that the Rock is "Peter's Confession" is True - it is also true that the PERSON of Peter is also Rock. After all, the confession of faith is uttered by a person, not just an inanimate object.

In both the Old and New Testament, when God changes a person's name it is because of their Faith. So is it Peter's faith that Christ uplifts? YES! Is it also Peter the person? YES!