The Rock

[Pleural]

Matthew 14:
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matthew 16:
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The Gospel which has just been read touching the Lord Christ, who walked on the waters of the sea; and the Apostle Peter, who as he was walking, tottered through fear, and sinking in distrust, rose again by confession, gives us to understand that the sea is the present world, and the Apostle Peter the type of the One Church. For Peter in the order of Apostles first, and in the love of Christ most forward, answers oftentimes alone for all the rest. Again, when the Lord Jesus Christ asked, whom men said that He was, and when the disciples gave the various opinions of men, and the Lord asked again and said, “But whom say ye that I am?” Peter answered, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to Him, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.” Then He added, “and I say unto thee.” As if He had said “Because thou hast said unto Me, ‘Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;’ I also say unto thee, ‘Thou art Peter.’” For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and that in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. “Therefore,” he saith, “Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock” which thou hast confessed, upon this Rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;” that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, “will I build My Church.” I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee.
For men who wished to be built upon men, said, “I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,” who is Peter. But others who did not wish to be built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, “But I am of Christ.” And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.

[rkwright]

I'm not sure what the point of this was? Maybe to disprove that Peter was the head of the Church?

This was a homily by St. Augustine, mostly about not tottering as Peter did on the waves. The rest of the homily can be read here [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160326.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160326.htm[/url]
I would really advise in the future citing your sources if you're going to copy paste things, and then make your arguments from them.

St. Augustine also said the following about Peter
(taken from Catholic.com)
[quote]Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).[/quote]

Edited November 13, 2007 by rkwright

["Kyrie eleison"]

Abraham was the [b]rock [/b]on which the nation and purpose of God was founded on, in the OT, just as Simon "Peter" is the [b]rock,[/b] in the NT.

God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow!

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=RnQiVgUn728C&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=abraham+was+called+the+rock+in+th+ot&source=web&ots=gp_TVaB6rO&sig=4h5yExTr7HlyBDFOD7OVyFIMYj0"]Visit My Website[/url]

[Spamity Calamity]

Hmmmm. Maybe the OP will come back and explain the reason for posting. Kyrie you wrote that book? It looks cool.

["Kyrie eleison"]

No, heavens, I didn't write that book, I must be using the wrong option for linking the website! Can someone please show me which option to use!

[Pleural]

Rather than copying and pasting short quotes without context from a website,
could you paste a direct link to the entire text of Sermons 295, from which your first quote derives?
Neither of my sources of Augustine's works, ccel.org and newadvent.org, have any
more than 97 Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament.

[cmotherofpirl]

Matthew 16:18
[b] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [/b]
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam
Thou art Peter, etc... As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, John 1:42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Upon this rock, etc... The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, Matthew 7:24-25. The gates of hell, etc... That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

This has been the teaching of the Church since the beginning.
new advent.org article on Saint Peter

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Rather than copying and pasting short quotes without context from a website,
could you paste a direct link to the entire text of Sermons 295, from which your first quote derives[/quote]

Isaiah 51:1 "Listen to me, you who pursue justice, who seek the LORD; Look [b]to the rock [/b]from which you were hewn, to the pit from which you were quarried; 2 [b] Look to Abraham, your father,[/b] and to Sarah, who gave you birth; When he was but one I called him, I blessed him and made him many."

The link takes you directly to the page 41, which explains that Jesus is not only called ROCK, but that Abraham is called ROCK, just as Peter.

Here is another link

[url="http://www.iamonetruth.com/rocks.htm"]http://www.iamonetruth.com/rocks.htm[/url]

(excerpt)
We might not see that as anything significant. But for the Jews that is a phrase of great dignity, to be called a rock. Only Yahweh had been called rock[b] except[/b] for Abraham, the Patriarch! For Jesus to call Peter rock, He is basically saying; "Peter you are so special in My Plan of Salvation that your name will be [b]rock[/b] just like Abraham was rock in Yahweh's plan in the Old Covenant!

Edited November 13, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[BG45]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a great deal of confusion stem from the use of "petra" in Greek? I was always under the impression that the Aramaic word "Cephas" (?) was a bit more clear in defining Peter as the Rock upon which the church was built.

[Pleural]

Augustine's exposition on Psalm 108 (as found at [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801108.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801108.htm[/url]) doesn't even mention the name of Peter...

Edited November 13, 2007 by Pleural

[Myles Domini]

I do not particularly wish to enter into a controversy right now. I've been having a turbulent time interiorly (hence my inactivity upon these boards) but since I am here and I was given this tag of 'church scholar' I feel obliged to contribute something. I'm sure if you browse through the defence directory you'll find fuller explications but for now please settle for this extract from "[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.HTM"]The Spirit of Catholicism[/url]".

[quote]The evangelist, St. Matthew, records an event, which of itself is quite sufficient to explain St. Peter's pre-eminence in the primitive community and the high value set upon his testimony to the Resurrection. The scene is the neighborhood of Caesarea Philippi, by the southern slopes of Mt. Hermon, in sight of the mighty range in which the Jordan has its source. Our Lord put this question to His disciples: Whom do you say that I am?" Simon Peter made answer: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus answered him: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona; because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter (the rock), and upon this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven" (Mt. xvi, 15 ff.). If we examine the linguistic idiom of these verses, it immediately becomes evident that they are Aramaic in origin. The play on the word Kephas is perfect only in Aramaic, for in the Greek "petra" (rock) has to be changed into "Petros." The expressions Simon Bar Jona, gates of hell, keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, binding and loosing, and the antithesis of heaven and earth, are all Aramaic in character. Semitic scholars are therefore emphatic in their denial that the passage is a western, i.e., Roman forgery. On purely linguistic grounds that is an impossibility, and the hypothesis is now quite obsolete. The passage is native only to the soil of Palestine and to primitive Jewish Christianity. Is it genuine? That is to say, it is obviously an original part of the Gospel of St. Matthew, or does it betray the character of a later interpolation? In itself the whole passage is plainly very closely strung together and there is no sign of any artificial patchwork. St. Peter's confession: "Thou art the Christ" is balanced by our Lord's attestation: "Thou art the rock." Our Lord's searching inquiry: "Whom do men say that the Son of Man is?" and the exhaustive enumeration of the false opinions of the people lead up with psychological skill to St. Peter's correct answer and our Lord's commendation. "Other men judge falsely and in earthly fashion about me. But thou hast discerned my mystery: Blessed art thou," etc. The Protestant theologian Bolliger remarks of the verses that they "fit together as aptly as the members of a body. They have the quite inimitable flavor of a great historical moment. Moreover, they are expressed in words such as come only to the great ones of this world, and even to these only in the greatest moments of their life. No interpolator can write in this fashion."[6]

But is it not conceivable that St. Matthew himself—let us say in the Jewish and anti- Pauline interest—invented the words about the rock and the keys in order to secure St. Peter's teaching authority as against St. Paul, or the teaching authority of Jerusalem as against the pretensions of the Hellenistic communities? The passage would then be a product of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, who wished to play off St. Peter against St. Paul; at the best a "pious fraud" of the author of our Gospel. It would take me too far were I to repeat the exhaustive proof adduced by Protestant as well as Catholic theologians to show that there is no evidence in the history of the primitive Church of any antagonism between St. Peter and St. Paul, or between Jerusalem and the Hellenistic communities. And the further demonstration that the Gospel of St. Matthew is inspired by no antagonism towards St. Paul is likewise quite unnecessary. It is decisive for our purpose to register the admitted fact that the fundamental word of our Lord's promise, His denomination of Peter as the "rock," was already current in primitive Christianity long before St. Matthew wrote his Gospel—ie., shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and that it was admitted and recognized not only among Jewish Christians, but also among the Gentiles, and not least of all in the churches founded by St. Paul. Not St. Matthew only, but St. Mark also (iii, 16) and St. John (i, 42) record that St. Peter was originally called Simon, and that our Lord Himself first gave him the name of Peter (Kepha=Petros=Rock). Mark (iii, 16) tells us further that Jesus substituted also for the names of James and John the designation Boanerges. Now it is surely very significant—Holl has recently pointed this out—that the name Boanerges did not become current among the primitive Christians, whereas Simon's designation as Kepha, or the Rock, did. Simon's surname became for all Christendom his proper name. St. Paul scarcely mentions him except as Kephas, the Greek form of the Aramaic Kepha. In his Epistle to the Galatians (i, 18; ii, 7, 8) he introduces the Greek translation, Petros. And that form Petros prevailed in the Hellenistic communities to the exclusion of any other. His own proper name, Simon, fell completely out of use. The fact is all the more striking because neither the Greek Petros, nor the Aramaic Kepha, had been employed as proper names before the time of Christ. Therefore the early Christian communities, several decades before St. Matthew wrote, and in any case already about the year A.D. 35, when St. Paul was converted, were interested in Simon's being called, not Simon, but Rock. "All the faithful were meant to know that he was the rock" (Kattenbusch). And why? For no other reason that can be discerned save that the whole Christian body recognized that surname (Kepha=Petros=Rock) as the expression of St. Peter's special function and importance for the Church, and was aware that this special position rested upon the original intention, and deliberate, unequivocal decision of our Lord Himself. In other words the central substance of this passage of St. Matthew, Simon's designation as the foundation stone of the Church and the Church's establishment on him, belongs in the closest possible way to the texture of the common Christian tradition, and, indeed, to that tradition even in pre- Pauline times. And so it cannot have been the invention of narrowly Jewish and anti- Pauline circles towards the end of the first century. And thus we understand how not only the alleged "anti-Pauline" St. Matthew, writing for Jewish Christians, speaks of Simon the Rock, but also the Hellenistic Luke, writing for Gentile Christians and closely associated with St. Paul, records a saying of our Lord which reads like a precise explanation of St. Matthew's passage: "And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not; and thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren" (Lk. xxii, 31). So Christ prayed specially for Simon in particular that he should not fail in the faith and should "confirm" his brethren. The word "confirm" (sterizein=support) reminds us of the rock of St. Matthew. It is the special function of Simon to be the support and prop of the young Christian faith. Therefore St. Luke also implies Simon's vocation to be the rock. Nor is the case different with St. John. In the supplement to the fourth Gospel, which derives from the circle of St. John's disciples, the risen Christ asks: "Simon, son of John, lovest thou Me more than these?" (xxi, 15). Evidently our Lord expected a more faithful love from Simon than from the rest of His disciples. And on the basis of this more faithful love He deputed him, and him alone, to take His position as shepherd of His flock: "Feed My lambs, feed My sheep." We may turn these passages as we like, but we cannot escape the impression that the whole body of the early Christians knew that Simon bore a special relation to the stability of the Church, and derived this unique position of his from an express declaration of our Lord's. Consequently the words of our Lord reported by St. Matthew are not isolated and baseless, but they are in their substantial content rooted in and authenticated by the common tradition of primitive Christianity, a tradition which is earlier than St. Matthew's Gospel and earlier than St. Paul. It is therefore evident, and we need not labor the point, that we are not dealing here with a pre-eminence of St. Peter which was confined to his peculiar gifts, as for instance to a special capacity for the interpretation of Scripture or to special eloquence in the exposition of the faith. In fact, St. Peter counts not merely as one stone in the newly-founded Church, nor merely as the first stone, but as the rock, the foundation stone which supports the whole Church. He is therefore intimately connected with the whole being of the Church, not only with its teaching activity and its faith, but also with the fullness of that life which springs from this faith, with its discipline, its worship and its ordinances. The whole Church rests on Peter, and not merely its scriptural knowledge and its doctrine. Our Lord expresses this fact with even greater emphasis by the biblical image which he employs in the same context, promising Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Peter is to be the steward of the house—the same figure is used by our Lord elsewhere (Mt. xxiv, 45; Lk. xii, 42)—he alone has charge of the keys, and he has to supervise every department of the Church. The metaphor of binding and loosing points in the same direction. According to the rabbinical mode of speech from which it is taken, this signifies a power to forbid and to permit, to judge and to regulate, which is authoritative and valid in heaven, i.e., before God. Therefore these three images really describe that plenitude of power (plenitudo potestatis) of which the Vatican Council speaks, and which comprises full doctrinal and disciplinary authority, the complete governance of the Church in the most comprehensive sense. And, as we have seen, St. Peter's influence was not in fact confined to the doctrinal sphere alone.--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.HTM#06"]Karl Adam, Spirit of Catholicism, Chapter 6[/url][/quote]

[rkwright]

[quote name='Pleural' post='1418784' date='Nov 13 2007, 03:30 PM']Rather than copying and pasting short quotes without context from a website,
could you paste a direct link to the entire text of Sermons 295, from which your first quote derives?
Neither of my sources of Augustine's works, ccel.org and newadvent.org, have any
more than 97 Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament.[/quote]

The quotes I provided are from [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp[/url], I scrolled down to St. Augustine's quotes.

The Sermons past 97 are not available online, in fact when I searched it I found this old phatmass thread [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7919"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7919[/url]

The Psalm quoted is from an exposition on Psalm 109, but I seem to remember a renumbering, or a leaving of a psalm out during a translation. This would account for the cite being to 108, also note that it says 108 1. Nonetheless the quote provided can be found under his exposition of Psalm 109.

If you want to attack the credibility of Catholic.com, go ahead. But I highly doubt you'll get far on that tract. Just because something isn't available online doesn't mean it wasn't written.

Edited November 13, 2007 by rkwright

[Laudate_Dominum]

I clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be about this guy.
[img]http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/therock_9.jpg[/img]

Silly me.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1418864' date='Nov 13 2007, 05:06 PM']I clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be about this guy.
[img]http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/therock_9.jpg[/img]

Silly me.[/quote]
He changed his name right? He doesn't go by The Rock anymore... so I heard... I saw him on an interview with Mike and Mike in the morning on ESPN.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1418870' date='Nov 13 2007, 06:24 PM']He changed his name right? He doesn't go by The Rock anymore... so I heard... I saw him on an interview with Mike and Mike in the morning on ESPN.[/quote]
There are different takes on that so maybe we should debate the matter. It won't be a real hijack of the thread since the title still applies. Ok, my view is that his name will always be The Rock because... j/k