Victims, Survivors, And Perpetrators

[GodChild]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411253' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:37 PM']Neither nor would be more appropriate.

You apparently can't give as good as you get, either. Laugh at yourself; the rest of the world is doing it.

So there is but one forgiveness "that takes place in practice," is there? You seem to define forgiveness solely as permitting offenders to walk free. I do not hold to that definition, nor is it how I go about my business. Your theory is demolished, even if I am the only person who does not "practice" your definition of forgiveness.[/quote]

I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411259' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:53 PM']I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.[/quote]

That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? Taking consolation that your attacker will go to Hell? That is not true forgiveness, nor is it Christian forgiveness. The Christian doctrine of forgiveness is a doctrine of love which wishes the best for someone else. That best is never Hell. Wouldn't it be better to take consolation in the idea that perhaps the attacker will repent and at a later date convert? That means more in heaven and is in line with what God willed for us. Also, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy that salvation is not complete until "the entire cosmos" is saved. If you wish damnation upon someone, no matter their earthly punishments (or lack thereof), then you are not "practicing" forgiveness. If you believe you are then you cannot call yourself a Christian.

In short, we can leave you to your skewed belief in the definition of forgiveness. Then you must recant any professed faith in Jesus Christ. That is, unless you return to the truly Christian definition of forgiveness (and therefore love).

Quick edit to remind that even after all that Jesus went through (humiliation, nakedness, beatings, scourgings, piercings, abandonment) he still uttered "Father forgive them, they don't know what they do"

Edited October 30, 2007 by aalpha1989

[CatherineM]

I voted that it is more complicated than yes or no. I'm an attack survivor. I was injured so badly that I spent 8 years in a wheelchair. The head injury prevented me from being able to confront my attacker in court. I didn't get that kind of closure. I'm not sure I have really put much though into whether I have forgiven him. I think about the attack all the time, but this may be hard to understand, I don't think about him. I can't say actually if I have forgiven him or not.

I belong to a support group for immigrant women who have been rape/torture/attack survivors. I didn't want to go at first because I didn't feel like I had the right to sit in a room with women from Darfur or Cambodia. PTSD groups are hard to come by, so I had to take what I could. Sitting in the room with these women, hearing their stories, makes me wonder how they could ever forgive.

The priest who sat in the hospital all night with me the night I got hurt told me that forgiving is important to healing, you do it for yourself, but you don't have to forget. If you forget, then you have opened yourself up to it happening again.

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411259' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:53 PM']I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.[/quote]
Your opinion is yours if you keep it. You didn't. You made an assertion. In a public forum. You had a false premise.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted in the first place. You do care. You want people to know your opinion and you want a reaction. Your words were inflammatory. Also designed to get a reaction.

Forgiveness can be entirely internal.

Forgiveness does not require one to let the forgiven go free. I truly hope that every predator who is killed goes to heaven. I also hope they are stopped by whatever means before they hurt someone again.

Because of your wording, your premise is easily shot down. Pay more attention in the future.

[GodChild]

My opinion is mine, it remains mine regardless if I make it public or not. My words are inflammatory because they are contrary to what you believe. If I gave an answer like everyone else my words would not be construed as inflammatory – your problem with me and your decision to attack me is based on my opinion and belief being different to yours.
The question posed is as a Christian do you HAVE to forgive – my response is NO.

[GodChild]

double .. sorry

Edited October 30, 2007 by GodChild

[Maggyie]

The OP asks if CHRISTIANS... in other words those who believe in Jesus Christ... HAVE to eventually forgive their attackers in order to be theologically consistent. I have to admit to carrying the residue of a grudge myself, although nowhere near what other people have gone through. But I think Christians do have to forgive. I'm not completely there myself

As far as non-Christians, obviously people whose philosophical outlook is not based on forgiveness do not have to forgive others to be consistent. The Ayn Rand objectivists, for instance, probably don't have to forgive others, especially since they don't feel the need to be forgiven for anything, themselves.

Of course most Christians - and secular psychiatric professionals - would say that the Ayn Rand people still "have" to forgive in order to be made whole...

[Norseman82]

I voted more complicated than yes or no, because sometimes it takes a long time for a person to be able to get their bearings straight (think of people who have nightmares years after their trauma). It's not our business to browbeat victims or tell a rape victim that she can't pray the Our Father the day after her attack. Our efforts would be better spent ridding our parishes of cohabiting cantors and EMHCs.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1411287' date='Oct 29 2007, 10:17 PM']That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? Taking consolation that your attacker will go to Hell? That is not true forgiveness, nor is it Christian forgiveness. The Christian doctrine of forgiveness is a doctrine of love which wishes the best for someone else. That best is never Hell. Wouldn't it be better to take consolation in the idea that perhaps the attacker will repent and at a later date convert? That means more in heaven and is in line with what God willed for us. Also, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy that salvation is not complete until "the entire cosmos" is saved. If you wish damnation upon someone, no matter their earthly punishments (or lack thereof), then you are not "practicing" forgiveness. If you believe you are then you cannot call yourself a Christian.

In short, we can leave you to your skewed belief in the definition of forgiveness. Then you must recant any professed faith in Jesus Christ. That is, unless you return to the truly Christian definition of forgiveness (and therefore love).

Quick edit to remind that even after all that Jesus went through (humiliation, nakedness, beatings, scourgings, piercings, abandonment) he still uttered "Father forgive them, they don't know what they do"[/quote]

First of all, the attacker may not ask for or want forgiveness. And if that is the case, Hell is justice.

Second, you need to reread Revelations. One of the themes of the book is that the good will go to heaven, and the evil to hell. Additionally, there is a part where there is a vision of the martyred souls crying to God to avenge their blood, and God didn't browbeat them by calling them unChristian and unforgiving or demand that they recant any profession in Christ, huh?

[GodChild]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1411413' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:06 PM']First of all, the attacker may not ask for or want forgiveness. And if that is the case, Hell is justice.

Second, you need to reread Revelations. One of the themes of the book is that the good will go to heaven, and the evil to hell. Additionally, there is a part where there is a vision of the martyred souls crying to God to avenge their blood, and God didn't browbeat them by calling them unChristian and unforgiving or demand that they recant any profession in Christ, huh?[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411390' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:10 AM']My opinion is mine, it remains mine regardless if I make it public or not. My words are inflammatory because they are contrary to what you believe. If I gave an answer like everyone else my words would not be construed as inflammatory – your problem with me and your decision to attack me is based on my opinion and belief being different to yours.
The question posed is as a Christian do you HAVE to forgive – my response is NO.[/quote]
No. Your posts are inflammatory because you use inflammatory language. You are purposely insulting to God, something you know Catholics hold sacred. If atheists made enough of an impression on me for me to come up with something inflammatory about them (their heyday is long gone, and the most influential members--Stalin and Mao, murderers both--are dead) then I could give you an example on neutral territory. Nor can I walk up and slap down deism, because it, as well, is practically defunct. When Christianity as a whole gets to the same place (and I can see it looming close), you and I can have a drink and remember the good old days.

The reason I've engaged you is because you chose a certain tone that I find irresistable. Your position has less to do with it than you would think. When you learn this, you'll be able to communicate with the civilised members of the board. I'm the guy that teaches you. I serve a purpose. You can go on a row with me, or you can have a real discussion with the decent people. Your choice.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411414' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:15 AM'][/quote]

It actually [i]doesn't[/i] matter if the offender desires forgiveness, not if we're coming from a Christian perspective. As Followers of Christ, we follow his example, who forgave even the men who nailed him to the cross. And by the fact that there's nothing in the text to say they were sorry - how could they be as they were still in the process of committing the unjust act? - we see from the example of Jesus that forgiveness is a powerful and necessary thing for us to do.

The secular psychology/therapeutic world has even picked up on this in many ways, particularly by noticing the great benefits there are for the individual who can forgive and make peace in his or her own heart. This isn't to say it's easy. From my own experience of going to court many years ago and dealing with people who were not at all sorry for their actions against me, I had a small taste of this myself.

Regardless, from the Christian perspective, there is no doubt given the example of Jesus that we are to forgive at all extremes. [b][i]Seventy times seven. All those who trespass against us. [/i][/b]

[Lena]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1411402' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:46 AM']The OP asks if CHRISTIANS... in other words those who believe in Jesus Christ... HAVE to eventually forgive their attackers in order to be theologically consistent. I have to admit to carrying the residue of a grudge myself, although nowhere near what other people have gone through. But I think Christians do have to forgive. I'm not completely there myself

As far as non-Christians, obviously people whose philosophical outlook is not based on forgiveness do not have to forgive others to be consistent. [b]The Ayn Rand objectivists, for instance, probably don't have to forgive others, especially since they don't feel the need to be forgiven for anything, themselves. [/b]

Of course most Christians - and secular psychiatric professionals - would say that the Ayn Rand people still "have" to forgive in order to be made whole...[/quote]

That's a good point as to why people should attempt at forgiving--if we want to be forgiven (especially since we're all human and aren't perfect), so we should try to forgive others. To [i]not[/i] want to be forgiven sounds callous, and uncaring to others.

However, I can say these things without having been truly tested on them. Which is why I said it's too complicated in my earlier post.

[GodChild]

The ideal is to forgive, but it is also a vicious and cruel burden to place on a victim. It is easy for one to say “forgive seventy seven times” or this is what god wants you to do – doing it is a different story.
I went through abuse through my whole life. When I was seventeen I was gang-raped and set alight. Do I have to forgive those who attacked me and hurt me? From a theoretical standpoint, you may say yes. From a practical/realistic standpoint I say No. Why do I say no? Because every day I see the scars over my body, every day I wake up to meds, post-trauma backflashes and nightmares. I will never get married or have children/ a family. I will never have friends because I am a cripple to people ... and i have to forgive? those who get away with it, those who do not and will not ever say sorry? Those who don’t care ?
To demand mandatory forgiveness or else you are not a christian is punitive and cruel. Not only do you place an impossible burden on the victim but then you demonise them when they refuse to jump when you say so?

Edited October 30, 2007 by GodChild

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411626' date='Oct 30 2007, 02:51 PM']The ideal is to forgive, but it is also a vicious and cruel burden to place on a victim. It is easy for one to say “forgive seventy seven times” or this is what god wants you to do – doing it is a different story.
I went through abuse through my whole life. When I was seventeen I was gang-raped and set alight. Do I have to forgive those who attacked me and hurt me? From a theoretical standpoint, you may say yes. From a practical/realistic standpoint I say No. Why do I say no? Because every day I see the scars over my body, every day I wake up to meds, post-trauma backflashes and nightmares. Almost everyday, as hard as I try not to, I cut myself to ease the pain. I will never get married or have children/ a family. I will never have friends because I am a cripple to people ... and i have to forgive? I have to forgive those who hurt me and get away with it? Those who do not and will not ever say sorry? Those who don’t even care about what they’ve done?
To demand mandatory forgiveness or else you are not a christian is punitive and cruel. Not only do you place an impossible burden on the victim but then you demonise them when they refuse to jump when you say so?[/quote]

God bless you for sharing.

Please do not mistake the command as coming from individuals. [i]Christ[/i] is the one who gives the commandments. Christ, who bears the marks of nails still in his resurrected body, the wounds of evil torture, which you also know. He is the one who said 70x7 and cried out for forgiveness for his torturers.

I still bear scars from my days as a cutter, and I can tell you as someone who's walked his own trail of pain, there is no peace in holding hatred in your heart - whether it's directed outwardly or inwardly. You and I and all those on this board still have life here on earth, and the chance to make a difference. Never discount that.

The reason Christ gave us this commandment is precisely because He knew that hatred destroys the soul. Our forgiveness is not first and foremost for others, others who may never care, it is for [b]ourselves[/b], so that we can heal and not become like the evil that was done to us.

And in case this has gone unnoticed in the other posts, let me reiterate: No one has ever claimed this to be easy. Christ, in fact, calls us to the high road. But to climb it is to reach the peak of mercy and grace.