scardella Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) Nobody's arguing that ALL masses should have praise and worship music. There should be Masses with chant, masses with polyphony, masses with classical settings, masses with traditional hymns, masses with gospel choirs and masses with praise and worship. If you don't like P&W, that's fine. JUST DON'T TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE IT IF I LIKE IT. Sheesh! Y'all aren't the Magisterium. Edited November 2, 2007 by scardella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Philip Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='rkwright' post='1413104' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:21 PM']I can’t believe I read this whole thread… No seriously, why is there so much debate around this; this seems to be an open shut case. The documents are out there; they’ve said what is appropriate, end of story I would think… To start things off… From Instruction on Scared Music in the Liturgy Musicam Sacram There is much debate around some of the words being used. I don’t have a background in philosophy, but a quick look to the documents finds that that they define nearly every one of the terms we’re debating about! From De Musica Sacra Sounds like the gather hymns to me… And as far as our Praise and Worship goes… Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems pretty plainly obvious that P&W falls in this category, and cannot be used in liturgical functions. Lord Phillip, I must admit that I don’t fully understand all of your arguments; but again I wonder, are they even necessary? I’m not sure the Church even thinks so... From Musicae Sacrae Disciplina Why even get into the mess of figuring out the ‘neutrality’ of P&W (I have to admit I’ve had a little phil. and logic courses, but you guys totally lost me on this point) The church has already defined this type of music and where it lies.[/quote] RKWright, Thank you so much for sharing those quotations. Your interpretations of them ring with common sense and good scholarship. As far as "fighting it out", I agree that no more should be needed in terms of the compliance of the faithful, yet while the Church as our Mother tells us what we ought to do, she as a [i]good[/i] Mother often tells us [i]why[/i] we out to do those things, and certainly encourages her children to find out why on their own. The Church is not content to shepherd mere sheep, but for the dumb sheep to grow and mature and understand why the Church teaches what it does. Without understanding, our bretheren are forced (at best) to obey with hatred of the "rules" in their hearts. Yet with understanding, we are freed to obey and to LOVE the Church's teachings. God bless, and thank you again! Sincerely, Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1413218' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:43 PM']Nobody's arguing that ALL masses should have praise and worship music. There should be Masses with chant, masses with polyphony, masses with classical settings, masses with traditional hymns, masses with gospel choirs and masses with praise and worship. If you don't like P&W, that's fine. JUST DON'T TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE IT IF I LIKE IT. Sheesh! Y'all aren't the Magisterium.[/quote] See this is what I mean when I say that the argument boils down to "I really like P&W" I like it too. But I'm not the one telling you you can't have it at Mass. It is in fact that Magisterium that is saying that. I've quoted the bishops and so far no one has even thought of addressing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' post='1413226' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:49 PM']But I'm not the one telling you you can't have it at Mass. It is in fact that Magisterium that is saying that. [b]I've quoted the bishops[/b] and so far no one has even thought of addressing that.[/quote] Is this what are you talking about? [quote]2. Does the music express and interpret the text correctly and make it more meaningful? Is the form of the text respected? In making these judgments the principal classes of texts must be kept in mind: proclamations, acclamations, psalms and hymns, and prayers. Each has a specific function which must be served by the music chosen for a text. In most instances there is an official liturgical text approved by the episcopal conference. "Vernacular texts set to music composed in earlier periods," however, "may be used in liturgical texts."'3 As noted elsewhere, criteria have been provided for the texts which may replace the processional chants of Mass. In these cases and in the choice of all supplementary music, the texts "must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources."'4[/quote] Letsee... some are quite scriptural: "Your Love Oh Lord" by Third Day Your love, oh Lord Reaches to the heavens Your faithfulness stretches to the sky Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains Your justice flows like the ocean's tide I will lift my voice To worship You, my King I will find my strength In the shadow of your wings Psalm 36:6-8 LORD, your love reaches to heaven; your fidelity, to the clouds. Your justice is like the highest mountains; your judgments, like the mighty deep; all living creatures you sustain, LORD. How precious is your love, O God! We take refuge in the shadow of your wings. A few more examples: Better is one day -> Psalm 84 That where I am -> John 14 Creed (Rich Mullins) -> Apostle's Creed Edited November 2, 2007 by scardella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1413226' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:49 PM']See this is what I mean when I say that the argument boils down to "I really like P&W"[/quote] No, that's my motivation. not my argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Why not praise and worship dance? I found a site that sells praise and worship dresses: [img]http://www.movementconnection.com/prodimg/eu13524.jpg[/img] They look just like the dresses that Mahony's dancing babes wear. Anyway, we've got the approval of a Cardinal and lots of people like it. It fosters full, conscious, active participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 W000t! [img]http://www.thejudahcompany.com/twirl2.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1413218' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:43 PM']Nobody's arguing that ALL masses should have praise and worship music. There should be Masses with chant, masses with polyphony, masses with classical settings, masses with traditional hymns, masses with gospel choirs and masses with praise and worship. If you don't like P&W, that's fine. JUST DON'T TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE IT IF I LIKE IT. Sheesh! Y'all aren't the Magisterium.[/quote] What about hip-hop? Shouldn't there be a hip-hop mass as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Philip Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1413252' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:23 PM']W000t! [img]http://www.thejudahcompany.com/twirl2.jpg[/img][/quote] HA HA HA! Well done, sir. I do believe the issue is as clear as you are making it. Peter Kreeft addresses this subject succinctly: "Those dreary, drippy, little liberal lullibies we endure as contemporary hymns." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Some people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1413261' date='Nov 2 2007, 01:59 PM']Some people![/quote] Lol, I know right? Seriously though, don't take me too seriously, I'm just goofing around. I know you aren't trying to argue for your right to put on a spandex dress and frolic around at Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='dUSt' post='1413199' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:03 PM']<begin rant> First of all, I'm against all bad music being used in the mass. I'd rather attend a mass with no music at all than attend a mass with off-beat instruments and singers who hurt my ears. It's a disgrace to have bad music in the mass and completely unfair to every single parishioner in that congregation who is trying to focus. </end rant> [b]My stance[/b] With that said, I'm against praise and worship music being used in the mass. My reason is simple. [b]It's too worldly.[/b] I can't think of any legitimate argument I could make [b]for[/b] p&w that would allow me to exlude myself from also making that exact same argument for rock being used in the mass, or hip-hop, or heavy metal, etc, etc. It's a natural progression. [b]The "all music was contemporary at some point" argument.[/b] What about the argument that Gregorian Chant was at one time contemporary? But was it at any time worldy? I don't think so. What about the organ? That was contemporary and wordly, was it not? I don't know. Who cares. The point is that it is not wordly now, and probably not considered worldy at the time that it was embraced by the church. [b]So what is "worldly"?[/b] I have a formula. Look at the top 100 billboard charts. That is what is wordly. Find out and tally up all the instruments used in those bands/groups. If the instrument in question is associated or used by over 50% of those said groups, that will be considered a "wordly" instrument. Also, any instrument invented within the past 50 years will be considered "worldly". No worldly instruments should be used in the mass. Also, all singers should be subjected to an anonymous vocal test, screened by a random focus group of at least 10 people. If it is determined that over 50% of those people relate the voice of the singer to Britney Spears, Celine Dion, Cindy Lauper or Foghat, that singer should be considered "worldly". [b]Conclusion[/b] Seriously, the mass should be holy, reverent, and have a good amount of silence in it. All too often, p&w seems to want to fill up every second of every mass with noise. I want to leave this world when I enter a church. I don't want to be reminded of it. To all of the prasie and worship advocates... I beg of you, stop trying to bring the world into the mass, and let me [b]please[/b] retain one of the only escapes I have left from this world. Is it too much to ask for that one hour a week?[/quote] Nice. I really liked your rant. Overall, I think your post makes sense. Thanks for the input, dUSt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1413218' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:43 PM']There should be Masses with chant, masses with polyphony, masses with classical settings, masses with traditional hymns, masses with gospel choirs and masses with praise and worship.[/quote] I'll ask again. What about a mass with hip-hop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='dUSt' post='1413287' date='Nov 2 2007, 04:37 PM']I'll ask again. What about a mass with hip-hop?[/quote] Never heard of one. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Philip Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1413306' date='Nov 2 2007, 03:31 PM']Never heard of one. Why?[/quote] Scardella, You are dodging a perfectly logical question. Please answer it. We are all very curious about how you can justify a 'praise and worship' Mass while not at the same time justifying a hip-hop Mass, or, what I prefer, a hilbilly ho-down Mass. Thanks, Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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