Praise And Worship

[Sammy Blaze]

PS> Just to play the part lol,

People have said this before, at any given point in time in the church's history, certain forms of music have been contemporary....

Wasn't Polyphony banned in liturgy during the 14th century? (that's like some wikipedia junk haha)...it's just interesting to ponder how a form of music is banned from liturgy, and then accepted to the point that it eventually becomes the preferred form of music for liturgy...I'm not drawing any inferences or conclusions, just thinking out loud in the context of this discussion....

Peace of Christ,
~S.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412421' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:03 AM']Oh and here is your Church quote from "Music in Catholic Worship"
[quote]
2. Does the music express and interpret the text correctly and make it more meaningful? Is the form of the text respected? In making these judgments the principal classes of texts must be kept in mind: proclamations, acclamations, psalms and hymns, and prayers. Each has a specific function which must be served by the music chosen for a text. In most instances there is an official liturgical text approved by the episcopal conference. "Vernacular texts set to music composed in earlier periods," however, "may be used in liturgical texts."'3 As noted elsewhere, criteria have been provided for the texts which may replace the processional chants of Mass. In these cases and in the choice of all supplementary music, the texts "must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources."'4[/quote]
As I said, not opinion
[/quote]


Y'all will have to forgive me, I haven't read this whole thread (because I'm lazy), but I agree with what hot stuff is saying here. My biggest problem with P&W music [b]in Mass[/b] is that with many of these songs they are not in conformity with Catholic Theology. They are nice songs for a different sort of gathering, but when what the lyrics are saying are in opposition to or contradict what we've professed to believe during the Mass I think there's a problem there. I'm not saying Gregorian Chant or bust, but I [b]do[/b] think that our song selections for Mass should reflect what we believe. Many Protestant composers don't cut the mustard.

[scardella]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412037' date='Oct 31 2007, 02:25 PM']But I take serious issue with your assumptions here. You are divorcing the idea of proper debate from one being able to make valid points. In other words, you feel you do not need to be logical to make a point.[/quote]

I think I'm being perfectly logical.

[quote]These rules are not here to bind us, but to free us from thinking poorly about the world, humanity, and God. You would do well to submit yourself too.[/quote]

My bishop has consistently praised (pun not intended, but appreciated) this sort of music both in and out of the Mass. To the best of my knowledge, I AM submitting myself...

[quote]"If the congregation is presented with Church music where they become simply an audience to the music, then the music is subverting the Mass."

This is the same sort of thing with the lyrics. BOTH 'praise and worship' music and great master works of classical music can be "subverting to the Mass" by making the congregation an audience, so it is pointless to discuss. It is not an issue to this debate (which seems to be something you have a serious problem understanding).[/quote]

I'm saying that the music encouraging full, conscious and active participation to the true reality of what's going on in the Mass is far more important than the style, and the style matters [b]only[/b] insofar as it supports or subverts that.

[quote]"BTW, the lyrics DO play a part in that."

I do not understand how you could be having so much difficulty with this issue. I am NOT saying that, in the end, lyrics do not matter.[/quote]

I just wanted to be clear with your understanding of things... I know that it's tangential to the [b]style[/b], but it is NOT tangential to the greater topic of music in the liturgy.

[quote]"Last I checked, the music is supposed to facilitate full, conscious and active participation of the Mass."

Bravo (or perhaps Brava?). THIS is the heart of the debate. I am very glad you brought this up.

What I am saying is that there are objective elements in any kind of music. My proof for this was the whole extreme death-metal Mass example. Death metal objectively embodies hatred, rage, lust, gluttony, and all the things I have already said. [color="red"]'Praise and worship' music, in the nature of the aesthetics (once again, not necessarily the lyrics), DO NOT EMBODY CHRISTIAN VIRTUES OF CHARITY, HOPE, COURAGE, FAITH, TEMPERANCE, and all that things I have already said. IN FACT, they embody individualism, self-idolatry, simple-mindedness, anti-authoritarian rebellion, and most of all shallowness.[/color] This of course is impossible for someone immersed in the times to discern. It requires one to step outside their immediate context and to look as objectively as one can at the issue. Read any elementary work of the musicology of popular music to help you in this.

Ancient forms of Church music, on the other hand, OBJECTIVELY embody a posture of prayer, meditation, self-denial, submission, courage, hope, charity, faith, temperance and a host of other things. Not all ancient music is suitable. There are some beautiful English renaissance songs that are delightful to listen to, but do not belong in the Mass. They embody aesthetics that are not even bad, but they are attempting to do something entirely different.[/quote]

Here's where you lose me completely. I completely disagree with the colored statement. I frankly don't even know how you can even come to that conclusion. As far as I can tell, music (divorced from any lyrics) is only capable of expressing raw emotion (happiness, sadness, anger, etc.), not intellectual things such as individualism, self-idolatry, anti-authoritarianism, or shallowness. It is lyric which applies direction and shape to those emotions. A raw thrashing death-metal solo may make me angry, but it doesn't tell me to be angry at any given thing. The reason we can say that death metal is inappropriate for Mass that we are at the wedding feast of the lamb, and where is there room for anger in being united bodily with Christ? I must admit, though, that I don't have any formal music training. This is simply my observation.

[quote]My biggest problem with P&W music in Mass is that with many of these songs they are not in conformity with Catholic Theology.[/quote]

Those songs that are not in conformity w/ Catholic theology don't belong in the Mass, but that isn't a reason for the ones that are perfectly acceptable to Catholic understandings of things to be excluded as well.

Edited November 1, 2007 by scardella

[Lil Red]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1412642' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:50 AM']Y'all will have to forgive me, I haven't read this whole thread (because I'm lazy), but I agree with what hot stuff is saying here. My biggest problem with P&W music [b]in Mass[/b] is that with many of these songs they are not in conformity with Catholic Theology. They are nice songs for a different sort of gathering, but when what the lyrics are saying are in opposition to or contradict what we've professed to believe during the Mass I think there's a problem there. I'm not saying Gregorian Chant or bust, but I [b]do[/b] think that our song selections for Mass should reflect what we believe. Many Protestant composers don't cut the mustard.[/quote]
and neither do many "Catholic" composers that have songs in many of our current hymnals.

[LouisvilleFan]

Dang... some people in this thread need a drink (assuming they're of age... go ask your father). If not, take a chill pill or something. Maybe some P&W isn't ideal for the Mass, but it's by far not the worst thing to ever happen either.

Anyway, If I may make an observation... does anyone else notice how many P&W songs are based almost ver batim on Psalms or other Scripture? While I don't usually hear P&W music at Mass (since I don't reguarly attend any suburban parishes), half the time some random song I know pops into my head during the Psalm reading. Like today there was "seek your face, O God of Jacob" from "Give Us Clean Hands." Seems to me, if nothing else, there should at least be some way in which P&W songs that come right out of Scripture can be made appropriate for Mass.

Edited November 1, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Jaime]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1412686' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:06 PM']Dang... some people in this thread need a drink (assuming they're of age... go ask your father). If not, take a chill pill or something. Maybe some P&W isn't ideal for the Mass, but it's by far not the worst thing to ever happen either.

Anyway, If I may make an observation... does anyone else notice how many P&W songs are based almost ver batim on Psalms or other Scripture? While I don't usually hear P&W music at Mass (since I don't reguarly attend any suburban parishes), half the time some random song I know pops into my head during the Psalm reading. Like today there was "seek your face, O God of Jacob" from "Give Us Clean Hands." Seems to me, if nothing else, there should at least be some way in which P&W songs that come right out of Scripture can be made appropriate for Mass.[/quote]

Never said it was the worst thing to happen to Mass. That title is held by clowns miming the Passion. I said it was a result of poor catechesis.

And think about it logically. If a song is written by a very talented protestant, (and there are tons of good songs by them) does it belong in a liturgical setting? No one is saying that P & W isn't good. I'm saying its not appropriate for Mass.

And really the only defense that anyone has offered to the contrary is "People like it". Well sorry folks but that just ain't a good enough argument

[scardella]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412689' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:25 PM']And think about it logically. If a song is written by a very talented protestant, (and there are tons of good songs by them) does it belong in a liturgical setting? No one is saying that P & W isn't good. I'm saying its not appropriate for Mass.[/quote]

Why would the fact that it [b]may[/b] be written by a protestant make it automatically inappropriate for Mass?

Edited November 1, 2007 by scardella

[Norseman82]

Is EVERYTHING protestant wrong?

[Laudate_Dominum]

lol, omgosh, I just skimmed some of this thread. haha
I must say this makes me glad to belong to a parish where this kind of discussion would never happen. I guess if I was in a position where the only options were P&W or stuff like the "Gather" hymnal I'd be tempted to argue for P&W. lol

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='scardella' post='1412697' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:56 AM']Why would the fact that it [b]may[/b] be written by a protestant make it automatically inappropriate for Mass?[/quote]
I've seen Protestant services that are more liturgical and solemn that many Catholic Masses. Go figure.

One of my relatives belongs to a Protestant denomination that split off of another denomination because they didn't agree with having guitars at their services. lol.

Just felt like sharing.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1412686' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:06 PM']If not, take a chill pill or something.[/quote]

I'll supply the chill pill:

Edited November 1, 2007 by Norseman82

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1412706' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:34 PM']I'll supply the chill pill:[/quote]
Very cool.

Btw, I spoke too soon two posts ago; I'll be attending a [i]forma ordinaria[/i] Mass tonight and who knows how it will be? If I were to speculate based on past experience it will probably involve some sappy keyboard playing and synth beats to the most atrocious songs that the OCP books have to offer. They may even provide tinkly musical accompaniment to the consecration.
The small minority of people who prefer songs such as "Awesome God" and "Let the Fire Fall" are just nostalgic for their teenage years. We need to be one community and this demands uniformity in worship, thus, it is imperative that all parishes in our diocese adopt the Haugen-Haas Hymnal Gold Edition and install a goofy looking keyboard right next to the altar – I mean table.

Oh, and if by chance you feel attracted to sacred music such as Gregorian chant it is recommended that you seek counseling or perhaps look into one of the schismatic sects who can tolerate such neurotic personalities. Now I've got to go listen to some tapes I picked up at Mahony's last conference..

[scardella]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1412708' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:56 PM']Very cool.

Btw, I spoke too soon two posts ago; I'll be attending a [i]forma ordinaria[/i] Mass tonight and who knows how it will be? If I were to speculate based on past experience it will probably involve some sappy keyboard playing and synth beats to the most atrocious songs that the OCP books have to offer. They may even provide tinkly musical accompaniment to the consecration.
The small minority of people who prefer songs such as "Awesome God" and "Let the Fire Fall" are just nostalgic for their teenage years. We need to be one community and this demands uniformity in worship, thus, it is imperative that all parishes in our diocese adopt the Haugen-Haas Hymnal Gold Edition and install a goofy looking keyboard right next to the altar – I mean table.

Oh, and if by chance you feel attracted to sacred music such as Gregorian chant it is recommended that you seek counseling or perhaps look into one of the schismatic sects who can tolerate such neurotic personalities. Now I've got to go listen to some tapes I picked up at Mahony's last conference..[/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412689' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:25 PM']Never said it was the worst thing to happen to Mass. That title is held by clowns miming the Passion.[/quote]

I'd probably give the rebellious nobility of the Middle Ages that title for their Black Masses.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412689' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:25 PM']And think about it logically. If a song is written by a very talented protestant, (and there are tons of good songs by them) does it belong in a liturgical setting? No one is saying that P & W isn't good. I'm saying its not appropriate for Mass.

And really the only defense that anyone has offered to the contrary is "People like it". Well sorry folks but that just ain't a good enough argument[/quote]

Not mine... my defense is that the lyrics of many P&W songs are entirely or mostly taken straight out of Scripture. If we can't sing Scripture at Mass, what can we sing?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='scardella' post='1412709' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:03 PM'][/quote]
I'm just goofing around, pay no attention.