Praise And Worship

[inDEED]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412405' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:56 PM']Second, I am very familiar with the text you quoted from: are you?[/quote]

I know the text that it justifies my point.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412405' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:56 PM']Do you know what it means when it refers to polyphony?[/quote]

Nope - never heard of the word before. It just sounded pretty.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412405' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:56 PM']Do you know what they are referring to when they say "sacred music"? Let me be the first to tell you that they most certainly do not mean popular music forms. I could quote several authoritative ecclesiatical texts to you, but instead of nailing you in the head with authority, I want you to understand why the authority says what it says.[/quote]

Once again, I am sure that your opinion on the determination of "sacred" music would be a well, thought-out one. In fact, I'll save you the trouble and give you my understanding of "sacred" music - music that is made holy & set apart for religious use. What about the lyrics I originally posted from the David Crowder*Band deviate from that? I see nothing.

Oh - and "nailing me in the head" with authority? HAHAHAHAHA! I love that one, bro. I haven't heard that one before. And, I gotta say - so far - your posts have really just wreaked of pretentiousness with an ending of, "God Bless".

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412405' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:56 PM']Additionally, you are assuming that 'praise and worship' music "correspond[s] to the spirit of the liturgical action." Since that is the point in question, it must be said (again) that we have a logical fallacy: circulus in demonstrando. I am SO tired of logical fallacies...anyone have anything coherent to say?[/quote]

I am not "assuming" anything. I am [b]stating[/b] that many songs that are in the "praise & worship" category are in the spirit of liturgical action. Period.

I am SO tired of posts such as yours, bro. I really am. I'm going to step away from this debate now...

[b]For those of you who have been gracious enough to follow this debate to this point, I want you to know that most Praise & Worship music is beautiful. And, if it is being sung @ your parish, God bless your Music Ministers![/b]

THANK YOU, CLEVELAND!!! GOOD NIGHT!!!

[MIKOTHEFREAKSHOW]

so i was talking to Jesus right, He told me HIMSELF HE LOVES PRAISE AND WORSHIP IN THE MASS!

as long as it is done reverently!

hahahahahahaha i am totally kidding


anyways, while some of you trads "trads = traditionalists" hahaha are focused on what song is appropriate and not, countless youth are being more drawn to the mass because Jesus has allowed contemporary praise and worship to reach people...

i totally see what u mean when u say heavy metal or whatever would never be appropriate THUS there is or theoertically has to be a a line somewhere where it is objectively appropriate and objectively not appropriate..

so i totally get what ur saying... but i guess, all i can say with the praise and worship in the mass (at least the ones ive participated in..) is simply "so far so good"

i dont know...

i feel like we are all stuck in our ways here.. its funny cuz like u'll rarely see a person who is cool with praise and worship in the mass ever dawg on the trads with their chants and hymns in the mass, but the other way around = different story dude..

[Jaime]

Or you could acknowledge the liturgical guidelines I posted inDEED

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1412358' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:34 PM']Ad hominem. EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have NOT ONCE heard an exchange with my arguments. NOT ONCE. All you people can do is try to attack my character or pick out little mistakes here and there. With every passing post I am more convinced the other side has no real voice to substantiate its claim that 'praise and worship' music is fitting for the Mass.

For shame.[/quote]
i am not concerned about your beaver dam argument or about this beaver dam subject. as a MODERATOR, i am concerned about keeping people to the guidelines. and comments like 'demolish the competition' come really close to the line, imo.

and i fail to see where i was attacking your character.

and as a side note, i was just interested in what your credentials/background were. no sarcasm. we have had people who like to spout off about things that they have no background in. thank you for letting us know your background. we appreciate it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1412357' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:33 PM']speaking of sarcasm....

would you consider this about winning souls for Christ? cause i never thought their souls were in danger. i don't think they're gonna go to hell for believing praise and worship is part of the mass. it's not about 'demolishing the competition' (nor did i ever say it was), but instead about how to best worship God. There's someone who is right and someone who is wrong. Maybe I was a bit too harsh.

I am sorry if I offended everyone by the "demolish" comment, I did not think twice about it. When I am "demolished" in an argument I admit it (maybe after a few hours, but I can admit it). I don't hurt my own feelings. I thought you could take it, especially since I did not mean anything derrogatory towards you. I did not go about this in a charitable way and should have rephrased my comment. I apologize. Sincerely.

No sarcasm.[/quote]
like i said, i could care less about the topic. i was concerned about the 'demolish' comment. thank you for apologizing for it, though it was not directed at anyone in particular.

and yeah, i would consider that a comment like that would turn people away.

[Jaime]

[quote]I am not "assuming" anything. I am stating that many songs that are in the "praise & worship" category are in the spirit of liturgical action. Period.[/quote]

How could they be liturgical when they are in fact protestant?

You ask for fact

you spout opinion

(and illogical ones)

[MIKOTHEFREAKSHOW]

you know what's sad

phatmass used to be so so so active and was rated the #1 catholic website at a point... or like MOST ACTIVE or something

i think after a while, many people stopped coming here... because of the trads who RIP and TEAR DOWN and ARGUE WITH SUCH ELOQUENCE...

many people here find so so so much security in their knowledge of the faith, that anyone who disagrees with them, they get super defensive because this knowledge which trads seek so much security in, seek their identity in, TRY THEIR HARDEST to protect it...

Jesus, ate with sinners, meet people where they were... Jesus said "unless u have faith like a child, u will not enter the kingdom of God...'

i dont think ur lacking ur "faith like a child" factor in preferring to use traditional hymns... it's ur judgemental nature of others who prefer a music you disagree with....

for countless youth, praise and worship is the only thing they know or associate with Christian music.. and have not been exposed to traditional hymns and whatever. are they missing something u guys have?!?!

i cant believe i am so drained from defending OUT OF ALL THINGS praise and worship in the mass...
i cant believe it... there used to be a debate on hip hop in the mass LOL (philip u wouldve been all over that one thats for sure lol)

but i mean come on, there are beautiful songs, songs honestly that i could say were written by the hand of God...
that to you are deemed "praise and worship" and they are not good enough for the mass??

lamo.. lamo lame. lame lol whatever. sigh,... LOL

enjoy life! debates are fun but man, dude. i dunno.. hahahah

hey, what did JP2 think by the way?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MIKO' post='1412442' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:18 PM']so i was talking to Jesus right, He told me HIMSELF HE LOVES PRAISE AND WORSHIP IN THE MASS!

as long as it is done reverently!

hahahahahahaha i am totally kidding[/quote]
okay, that was just plain phunny

[Jaime]

[quote name='MIKO' post='1412468' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:30 AM']you know what's sad

phatmass used to be so so so active and was rated the #1 catholic website at a point... or like MOST ACTIVE or something

i think after a while, many people stopped coming here... because of the trads who RIP and TEAR DOWN and ARGUE WITH SUCH ELOQUENCE...

many people here find so so so much security in their knowledge of the faith, that anyone who disagrees with them, they get super defensive because this knowledge which trads seek so much security in, seek their identity in, TRY THEIR HARDEST to protect it...

Jesus, ate with sinners, meet people where they were... Jesus said "unless u have faith like a child, u will not enter the kingdom of God...'

i dont think ur lacking ur "faith like a child" factor in preferring to use traditional hymns... it's ur judgemental nature of others who prefer a music you disagree with....

for countless youth, praise and worship is the only thing they know or associate with Christian music.. and have not been exposed to traditional hymns and whatever. are they missing something u guys have?!?!

i cant believe i am so drained from defending OUT OF ALL THINGS praise and worship in the mass...
i cant believe it... there used to be a debate on hip hop in the mass LOL (philip u wouldve been all over that one thats for sure lol)

but i mean come on, there are beautiful songs, songs honestly that i could say were written by the hand of God...
that to you are deemed "praise and worship" and they are not good enough for the mass??

lamo.. lamo lame. lame lol whatever. sigh,... LOL

enjoy life! debates are fun but man, dude. i dunno.. hahahah

hey, what did JP2 think by the way?[/quote]

Miko

There are those who would put down P & W. I'm not one of them. There are those who would put down Catholic Hip Hop. It ain't my thing but I'm not one of them.

It has nothing to do with whether or not its divinely inspired. Its about appropriateness. Being against P & W at Mass is not about the music. Its about the Mass.

No P & W is not appropriate. Its that simple. Its not judgemental.

Let me give you another example. We've got a guy that likes to lecter but he improvs the reading. He jazzes it up and tries to make it more dramatic. People really like the way he reads it. He's a naturally gifted story teller

But what he was doing is wrong. Why? Because thousands of people have given their lives to protect the words that he felt needed to be "jazzed up". And liturgically, we are not allowed to change or modify the readings. Its an abuse.

Now there were lots of folks who were mesmerized by his reading. But they were missing out on what they were supposed to be mesmerized by. And that would be the miracle they were about to witness in the Eucharist.

Also its important to keep in mind, what is moving to one person is not to another. It is important for the Church to set the guidelines so that all feel included.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1412326' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:09 AM']i would also like to know the credentials. at least when cam spoke, it had weight, because of his credentials.[/quote]
I have eight degrees in musicology, theology, oncology, Holy Scriptures, and Philosophy and no one takes me seriously

[Jaime]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1412538' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:54 AM']I have eight degrees in musicology, theology, oncology, Holy Scriptures, and Philosophy and no one takes me seriously [/quote]

Pssst

That's only five

[MIKOTHEFREAKSHOW]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412515' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:46 AM']Miko

There are those who would put down P & W. I'm not one of them. There are those who would put down Catholic Hip Hop. It ain't my thing but I'm not one of them.

It has nothing to do with whether or not its divinely inspired. Its about appropriateness. Being against P & W at Mass is not about the music. Its about the Mass.

No P & W is not appropriate. Its that simple. Its not judgemental.

Let me give you another example. We've got a guy that likes to lecter but he improvs the reading. He jazzes it up and tries to make it more dramatic. People really like the way he reads it. He's a naturally gifted story teller

But what he was doing is wrong. Why? Because thousands of people have given their lives to protect the words that he felt needed to be "jazzed up". And liturgically, we are not allowed to change or modify the readings. Its an abuse.

Now there were lots of folks who were mesmerized by his reading. But they were missing out on what they were supposed to be mesmerized by. And that would be the miracle they were about to witness in the Eucharist.

Also its important to keep in mind, what is moving to one person is not to another. It is important for the Church to set the guidelines so that all feel included.[/quote]


thats not even comparable... but bro, i do get what ur saying...
but what ur friend did with the reading, OMG i totally agree 110% for sure. do not change scripture to make it jazzy... i would hate that too...

but using praise and worship during mass.. omg... it's so ok. i think it's ok. because i do glorify God with it... not because i feel "good" or get tingly sensations coursing throughout my body. contrary to what u say, praise and worship isnt about us...

OMG, here it is...
ok

reading this thread - it seems people are saying "praise and worship seems to be about us, or is about us, (read the thread, u'll catch that people are saying that..) then they go "the mass however -it's all about Christ. it's all about the Eucharist..."

GUESS WHAT - MASS OR NOT MASS, ALL MINISTRY, ALL ACTIVITIES - SHOULD BE FOR CHRIST...
OF COURSE THE MASS IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF WORSHIP, NOTHING COMES CLOSE>. i mean come on, we're dealing with Jesus in the flesh here.. BUT EVEN PRAISE AND WORSHIP, SHOULD NEVER BE ABOUT US.. to the degree we must make certain the mass is 100% all for Christ and about Christ, we should make the same effort to make ALL PRAISE AND WORSHIP 100% for Christ..

omg, i just realized - read it if u must, but the people you side with or who side with you, seem to separate the INTENT of the Mass, and praise and worship. THE MASS CANNOT BE COMPARED TO AT ALL... it's the BEST, HIGHEST,
but we shouldnt separate the motive or intent of the two as if they are or should be different....
HOLLER!!

WASSSSSSUP!

LOL
JESUS is a FUN GOD! lol

[ardillacid]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412545' date='Nov 1 2007, 01:57 AM']Pssst

That's only five[/quote]
I'm not a friggin math major CUT ME SOME SLACK!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1412538' date='Nov 1 2007, 02:54 AM']I have eight degrees in musicology, theology, oncology, Holy Scriptures, and Philosophy and no one takes me seriously [/quote]

I only have six degrees of Kevin Bacon, and [b]everyone [/b]takes me seriously.

[Sammy Blaze]

Hello all,

This is in response to Lord Philip's original premises

I'm new to this conversation and alas, I'm a lowly Philosophy undergrad, and psy. grad student, so that may mean my comments/questions have no theological significance...

To keep it real, in laymens terms (hopefully) I'm just trying to get a jist for the main points of the debate, I'll try to make some points in favor of P&W
(Please correct me if I misunderstand the basic premises/arguments against P&W)

A general consensus is: The preferred, possibly the best form of music for the Roman Liturgy is Gregorian Chant, the exceptions being other forms of "Sacred Music" in "certain Polyphony" that "correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action" aka do not detract from the proper nature of the liturgy (maybe).

It is my understanding that Polyphony, is music arranged for multiple melodic voices and or instruments i.e. most of Baroque style music or a more contemporary example, possibly "Prince of Peace"

There is a constant debate as to which some forms of music are inherently contrary to qualities of Christianity. For those against P&W in mass, Church documents are taken to mean that instruments such as guitars are so involved in secular forms of music, or even inherently secular that it is impossible/inappropriate/ an abuse for them to be included in liturgy.

The argument is not about "the words (of P&W), but the objective aesthetics of the music"
=
by it's very composition, structure, and quality of it's instruments, contemporary Praise and Worship music is not suited for Mass, or some may even argue, just "bad" music...

What makes music "Sacred?" <---Like to hear input

The meaning of a song "corresponding to the spirit of the liturgical action" is a debate in itself. I would love to see phatmassers/the church's response to this phrase.

Are there some instruments which are inherently secular, or unsuited to glorify God?
This falls along the lines of the Catholic Metal and Catholic Hip-Hop debate

Also, how do people feel about cultural diversity in the Latin Rite throughout the world? <---love to hear input, some could argue the CP&W is cultural....

It would appear not all music forms are suitable for mass. I.E. death metal. I think this point is not debatable (some may disagree). At an extreme we can see that music is not neutral and may be linked to virtue and vice (debatable to some). however the farther we travel from the extreme, I feel neutrality may come into play. (alas, the remnants of modernity....philosophy jab, nevermind)
To maintain perspective, we are talking about music that is primarily acoustic guitar, piano, violin, flute, and possibly drum driven.
If we play out your original argument, one could assume that such instruments are linked to vice....

I think I disagree with what you think (not really an argument, seems more like a rant at times) P&W music embodies...that entire paragraph almost makes me want to feel offended lol. I question the validity of stating that there is no virtue in contemporary praise and worship music...we can also discuss later your interpretation of St. Augustine's "he who sings prays twice" since there is no mention (at least in the specific quote) of instrumentation....

I must remind you that the "Britney-Spears-listening, club hopping morons who do not know any better and who do not understand anything better..." are those who will benefit the most from proper catechesis, and the power of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass i.e. need to be evangelized, and brought to the faith... there is a need to be culturally relevant, if you view music as a cultural issue...

I'm sorry, I may have opened a can of worms, and I have to go to bed, I'm a stressed grad student haha....

For the Record, I love Chant and ancient forms of liturgical music, but It was a love I developed with a maturing faith, I feel there is a need ministerially for praise & worship in mass, and I feel the language of church documents is in some ways open-ended purposefully to allow for relevant and practical uses of music forms depending on culture, context, situation....in short, God moves.

I know I left a few holes in my questioning (it's not really an argument), and I may respond, although I am very busy at the current moment.... and Lord Philip, I hope anything I stated is not taken to be uncharitable, that is the last thing I intended, great, sound points by the way (maybe not all of them haha)

I look forward to any responses,

AMDG!
~S.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Sammy Blaze