Praise And Worship

[Jaime]

[quote name='mortify' post='1412163' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:22 PM']Is the music we sing from "Gather" considered praise and worship?[/quote]

No

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1411675' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:13 PM']SMM

Here's some stuff that I don't think anyone has addressed (if they did, I missed it)

Oh and let me preface with saying that I did youth ministry for 10 years. I used tons of P & W music with the kids. Never ever ever at mass.

It can be all summed up as "its not liturgical" and here are the reasons why

1. Liturgical music will have scriptural references. Very little of P & W is directly scriptural. Much of it is how one feels about God

2. Liturgical music is communal. It is focused on the 'we". Much of P & W is focused on the personal relationship.

3. And I can't stress this one enough. No mass is ever supposed to be focused on the event or group. No mass ever. Not a wedding, funeral, baptism, youth mass, etc. never ever ever. The primary focus is always the Eucharist. And all should be welcome to that celebration.

Why is this? Because when we go to mass, we are going to mass (literally) with all the people who went to mass before us. We are going to (literally) the Last Supper. Every time

And of course there is no P & W music that is focused on the Eucharist.

I can't tell you how many brides were po'ed because I wouldn't play a particular song at "her" wedding. But the fact remains the same. It is about the Eucharist. Anything else that is happening is a distant second.[/quote]

Whereas I respect your education and experience, I just want to caution you that based on what you posted above some of the Marian hymns (such as [i]Salve Regina[/i]) would be debatable as appropriate for Mass as well. The same for [i]Ad Multos Annos[/i].

Edited November 1, 2007 by Norseman82

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='mortify' post='1412163' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:22 PM']Is the music we sing from "Gather" considered praise and worship?[/quote]
What is "Gather"? Just curious.

[Lena]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1412194' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:06 PM']What is "Gather"? Just curious.
[/quote]

that's the songbook we use also in Mass

[jeffpugh]

Ah. In Canada we have one called "Catholic Book of Worship (III, mostly)" and some "Glory and Praise" for the more "contemporary" churches, and some that have what looks like a seagul on the front, though I guess it's supposed to be a dove. The latter two are not at all traditional, while this "Catholic book of Worship" has some chants, and some hymns too (some from other denominations, eg Lutheran)...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='MIKO']what is WRONG WITH PEOPLE THESE DAYS...

seriously, things are no longer are a discussion but debates now... some people just wanna go at it... cant share their points and move on, but wanna get that one little blow in that adds nothing to the discussion...

this is so so so embarassing seriously.

i am so so sorry hot stuff, not because i mightve offended you, but because of the bug up your %^^[/quote]
Hey, hey, Have some respect for hot stuff! I don't wanna hear any ad hominems on this thread. I respect and welcome the opinions of hot stuff, Philip and anybody else, as long as they are participating civilly.

Norsman, I appreciate your questioning of people's credentials, seeing that we've had the Super Catholic 14 year olds back in the day, but so far what Philip says makes sense to me, so I don't think it's far off the mark. I'm not trying to be a liturgical bigot here, I'm trying to strive for truth and renewal in our Church, and I think that is Philip's sincere motive as well. In our postmodern society, we shouldn't be throwing out the good that has been passed down to us (either the tradition of writing the sacred music, or the music itself). The fact is, in our time, there has been a swift and devastating blow to the sacred. Bit by bit, we're trying to build it back up. It takes much longer to build things up then destroy things. Music isn't any exception.

[inDEED]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412149' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:55 PM']Fortunately you guys aren't in charge[/quote]

Fortunately - neither are you.

[MIKOTHEFREAKSHOW]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1412267' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:21 PM']Hey, hey, Have some respect for hot stuff! I don't wanna hear any ad hominems on this thread. I respect and welcome the opinions of hot stuff, Philip and anybody else, as long as they are participating civilly.[/quote]


you're right. i sincerely apologize... i just think like his comment wasn't necessary. mine certainly wasnt either...

but he didnt have to write "fortunately, you guys arent in charge..." im just saying

i love the MASS, i LOVE THE EUCHARIST, I LOVE spending time with Christ and adoring Him in BOTH PRAISE AND WORSHIP and IN SILENCE...

i think what philip and others are getting confused with is (and i cannot blame them)
there are people who exploit the mushiness and feel goodness of praise and worship and it actually DOES become about them, not Christ.. i AGREE with that sentiment...

BUT THERE ARE OTHERS, who seriously do GIVE THEIR HEART OF LOVE FOR GOD in their praise and worship songs... and sometimes, the tingles, and consolation is NOT there.. and guess what! they STILL GIVE THEIR HEART TO GOD...

i think the people philip might be referencing are people who praise and worship only when it feels good... but those who sing, regardless of emotion and feel goodness and mushiness of the praise and worship songs... those are courageous people, lovers of God, who desire to glorify God more than anything else they "get out of praise and worship"

separate the two types of people who praise and worship... those who do do it for the feel goodness of it, and those who do it to seek God's face...

[Jaime]

[quote]you're right. i sincerely apologize... i just think like his comment wasn't necessary. mine certainly wasnt either...

but he didnt have to write "fortunately, you guys arent in charge..." im just saying[/quote]

While I won't retract my earlier comment, let me add to it

Fortunately I'm not in charge either.

And do get me wrong. I love P & W music. (You can find "Songs from the Loft" in my car right now) When I was in youth ministry I used it constantly. But just because its great and the kids get into it, some people think "Hey let's use it for mass!" The YM at my Church thinks that way. While it certainly doesn't invalidate a Mass, it is an abuse.

Good intentions bad catechesis.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1411872' date='Oct 30 2007, 11:52 PM']Your sarcasm is very unbecoming.[/quote]
i saw no sarcasm, i saw someone seriously trying to understand where you are coming from.

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1412003' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:43 AM']i thoroughly enjoyed this post. i have no debate skills and don't pretend i do. I'm just enjoying watching you demolish competition.[/quote]
i'm glad to know it's about 'demolishing the competition' and not winning souls for Christ or anything. or actually having posts that are based in charity and love.

[quote name='MIKO' post='1412128' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:14 PM']it's comments like "demolish the competition" from my fellow Catholic brethren that i would be embarrassed to introduce to my Protestant brothers and sisters in explaining or defending our faith...[/quote]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1412267' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:21 PM']Hey, hey, Have some respect for hot stuff! I don't wanna hear any ad hominems on this thread. I respect and welcome the opinions of hot stuff, Philip and anybody else, as long as they are participating civilly.

Norsman, I appreciate your questioning of people's credentials, seeing that we've had the Super Catholic 14 year olds back in the day, but so far what Philip says makes sense to me, so I don't think it's far off the mark. I'm not trying to be a liturgical bigot here, I'm trying to strive for truth and renewal in our Church, and I think that is Philip's sincere motive as well. In our postmodern society, we shouldn't be throwing out the good that has been passed down to us (either the tradition of writing the sacred music, or the music itself). The fact is, in our time, there has been a swift and devastating blow to the sacred. Bit by bit, we're trying to build it back up. It takes much longer to build things up then destroy things. Music isn't any exception.[/quote]
i would also like to know the credentials. at least when cam spoke, it had weight, because of his credentials.

[inDEED]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412313' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:58 PM']While it certainly doesn't invalidate a Mass, it is an abuse.

Good intentions bad catechesis.[/quote]
I certainly hope that those individuals who sincerely appreciate Praise & Worship music during the Mass don't look @ your post as the "be all, end all". And, while you certainly are entitled to your opinion (as we all are), I hope that your comment about P & W being "an abuse" is understood as simply that - your [b]opinion[/b].

In addition - I gotta say - I don't see P & W in the Mass as "bad catechesis". In fact, I believe that the following lyrics to David Crowder's, "O Praise Him (All This For A King" demonstrate very accurate & positive catechetics:

[quote]Turn your ear
To Heaven and hear
The noise inside
The sound of angels awe
The sound of angels songs
And all this for a King
We could join and sing
'All for Christ our King!'

How constant
How divine
This song of ours will rise
Oh, how constant
How divine
This love of ours will rise
Will rise...

CHORUS:

Ohh praise Him!
Ohh praise Him!
He is Holy!
He is Holy!

Turn your gaze
To Heaven and raise
A joyous noise
Oh the sound of salvation come
The sound of rescued ones
And all this for a king
Angels join to sing
'All for Christ our King!'

CHORUS {x2}

Oh la la la la la la..
Oh la la la la la la..
Oh la la la la la... laaa laa laa laaa!

CHORUS

How infinite and sweet
This love so rescuing
Oh how infinitely sweet
This great love that has redeemed
As one, we sing...

Hallelujah,
Hallelujah
He is Holy,
He is Holy (x2)[/quote]

Sorry, hot stuff - but your assertion that P & W is an "abuse" doesn't hold water. You may not particularly enjoy this type of music @ Mass, but it ain't an abuse.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1412156' date='Oct 31 2007, 06:10 PM']I might ask YOU to reread MY post.

There are other people [i]besides you[/i] posting here. I was not directing my response at you but rather in general because another poster brought up "comtemporary", and my point was a pre-emptive strike at the crowd that thinks that "new=bad".

Second, if you are going to imply that you are the representative of the other side, what are your credentials? How old are you? Do you have a degree in theology or church music? I just want to establish your credentials to make sure you are not just another one of the forum's 14-year old "super Catholics" that likes lecturing adults here on the board.[/quote]

Let me say first that it is proper to judge an argument on its own merits instead of on the official credentials of the author. Otherwise there is a great danger of ad hominem which is a logical fallacy.

Now on to my credentials. I do not have a degree in either music or in theology, but I do carry the load of several relevant upper-division courses at the University of California, Berkeley. Though my degree was in economics, the wide breadth requirements thrust me into the areas that became my passions. I took several courses on Western Music at Berkeley's School of Music which is one of the foremost institutions of musicology in the world. My rigorous studies there were augmented by special discussions with Professor Davitt Moroney, a world class Professor and specialist of church music . I also had a couple of semesters of rhetoric with special emphasis on textual criticism and the art of debate (all deconstructionist rubbish, but educational nevertheless). Privately I have devoured several works of Wilfrid Mellers, one of the world's leading voices on the philosophy of religious music.

On the theological side, I have a mere single upper division religion/literature class, but this has been augmented by my accumulation of a small library of such authors as G.K. Chesterton, Dr. Peter Kreeft, a host of Early Church Fathers, Pope John Paul II, C.S. Lewis, Aristotle, Plato, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Dr. Karl Barth and Professor Thomas Howard for starters.

Not overly impressive, I will admit, but perhaps it will win me an audience with you.

"There are other people [i]besides you[/i] posting here. I was not directing my response at you..."

I did not know that in a thread like this that a comment had to be addressed to me in order for it to be permissalbe for me to respond.

"my point was a pre-emptive strike at the crowd that thinks that 'new=bad'."

This was not evident from your post, and for you to insist that it should have been known as pre-emptive is dishonest. It is only safe to assume that when someone posts a rebuttal like this that it MIGHT have something to do with PREVIOUS POSTS. Perhaps this is an unfair assumption on my part, but it just seems to make the most sense.

God bless,

Philip

[MIKOTHEFREAKSHOW]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1412313' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:58 PM']While I won't retract my earlier comment, let me add to it

Fortunately I'm not in charge either.

And do get me wrong. I love P & W music. (You can find "Songs from the Loft" in my car right now) When I was in youth ministry I used it constantly. But just because its great and the kids get into it, some people think "Hey let's use it for mass!" The YM at my Church thinks that way. While it certainly doesn't invalidate a Mass, it is an abuse.

Good intentions bad catechesis.[/quote]


cool, i hope u forgive me then for my terrible unholy unCHristian comment...

cool that we can discuss..

ok, where does it go from "it doenst invalidate a Mass, it is an abuse"

WHAT?!?! how?!?! hahaha, such an extreme statement... geez i think when people change the (i dont even know the word for it) when people change like the things u do during mass *(e.g. standing around an alter forming a circle) or changing the sequence or whatever, i think that might be an abuse.. BUT LIKE SONGS?!?

replacing "on eagles wings" with "breathe" is that an abuse?? replacing "the Lord hears the cry of the poor" with "shout to teh Lord" lets say during a communion reflection song.. thats an abuse?? WHY?!?!

just because you say its an abuse, doesnt mean its an abuse... i dont get it... i seriously dont...

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1412324' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:08 AM']i saw no sarcasm, i saw someone seriously trying to understand where you are coming from.
i'm glad to know it's about 'demolishing the competition' and not winning souls for Christ or anything. or actually having posts that are based in charity and love.
[/quote]


speaking of sarcasm....

would you consider this about winning souls for Christ? cause i never thought their souls were in danger. i don't think they're gonna go to hell for believing praise and worship is part of the mass. it's not about 'demolishing the competition' (nor did i ever say it was), but instead about how to best worship God. There's someone who is right and someone who is wrong. Maybe I was a bit too harsh.

i agree with Lord Phillip. he has proven to have mastered the art of logic better than i have. why would i not want to see him do well in a debate? not only have i seen him do well, but...

no one has come close to hurting one of his points. his logic stands and it's like y'all are throwing popcorn at it. he is the only one in this thread who has shown to have put thorough thought and effort into forming an informed opinion on the matter. he also conforms to the documents set forth by the Vatican including but not limited to [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/243"]De Musica Sacra[/url], specifically chapter III 4. Must we really pull out all of cappie's arguments to show that Lord Phillip's argument is the one held by the Church?

The reason I've been 'cheering on' Lord Phillip, so to speak, is that I knew these documents and I knew the basic premise behind them, but had never thought about it so deeply as Lord Phillip.

I am sorry if I offended everyone by the "demolish" comment, I did not think twice about it. When I am "demolished" in an argument I admit it (maybe after a few hours, but I can admit it). I don't hurt my own feelings. I thought you could take it, especially since I did not mean anything derrogatory towards you. I did not go about this in a charitable way and should have rephrased my comment. I apologize. Sincerely.

No sarcasm.

Edited November 1, 2007 by aalpha1989