hyperdulia again Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 fine..other things matter...but they matter much less than the final moment...in the final moment we go from travellers...from creatures muddling around on earth doing our best/worst to each other and ourselves, but still being prompted by love (grace) to Love (God)...in the last moment we recieve the last promptings of love...we can open ourselves love or we can reject it...if we open we spend eternity with the Lover...if we reject we spend eternity in the torments of Hell (which I'm medieval enough to believe will include positive punishments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 and other things matter because God has a job of dispensing grace, love, and mercy for us to do when we're on earth. Other things matter because a life lived in ellion from the tth as you understand it is a life that predisposes one to reject God in the final moment...a life lived with asolutely loyalty to what grace and knowledge one has been given predisposes one to accept the graces offered at toment of death. I think this is fairly solid Catholic theology...I dunno tho'...I was formed by libs..in both the physica and spiritual senses of "formed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 lol, I don't know if this is a 'liberal' position. But something about it leaves me feeling uncomfortable. I'll have to ask people who know more than me. In a certain sense that "last moment" seems absolutely crucial. This si the message of Divine Mercy, right? But in another sense it seem reductionist. It also strikes me as contrary to the method that Christ used to come into the world. The same method he uses to continue to come into this world today. Namely, the encounter with another person. He was a person to be encountered. Today he is still a person to be encountered. This human fleshy existence is much more important than just a means to an end (salvation). Because he was much more than just a means to an end (the means of our salvation). It's this idea that most disturbs me about protestant theology. That "salvation" is the most important fact and the one through which all of Christ is understood. I don't think this is a Catholic teaching. At least its a Catholic teaching in as much as it is co-equal with the Incarnation. We are the Church of the Incarnation. This is why Mary is so important to us. Not because she 'save us with Christ' like the Co-redemptrix people would say . . . but because she is the Mother of Christ, Mother of God. These are just thoughts. I am not trying to be critical of what you wrote. I find what you wrote to be very beautiful, in a painful sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 13, 2004 Author Share Posted February 13, 2004 It's all very odd...I love this Church and Her God so very much...I realy do.....I just don't know what I'm supposed to do....the same place that has loved her aall of my life is the same place that has for all of my life told me that she is wrong about this...no amount of study...no amount prayer...no amount of time spent reading and re-reading the pertinent scriptural passages has brought me to believe her...torment my body with fasts and a small whip (it was grandmother's and yes it's creepy, and yes i left bruises and one scare) didn't bring it...the obedience i've gi the teaching for most of my life didn't bring it...the experience of my life lived in this world has not brought it...sparing with ironmonk didn'bring it...hurtful words from other catholics hasnn't brought it...but nothing shakes my faith in her as the bride of christ...the deposit of all revealed truth...but yet i still don't BELIEVE that this is from God--the teaching re: homosexuality...what else am i to do?/ if i can't accept the church's teaching on anything and even see the origin of the teaching in Satan, what am I supposed to do, but leave the Church? To attempt to "reform" the Catholic church is disloyal it gets people excommunicated...to stay inside of the Church while believing her to be wrong and doing/saying nothing gives people ulcers and early heart attacks....is it even possible to be Catholic and flat out disbelieve something the Church teaches..not doubt...not struggle with...but DISBELIEVE. i'm going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 17, 2004 Author Share Posted February 17, 2004 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 :sadder: HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRR i don't know what to tell you except this "NO AMOUNT" stuff is bs... you've lived 19 years (or 20, or 21, i'm not quite sure how old you are lol, you keep that a mystery) and you're supposeta have it all figured out by now. "no amount" how about a lifetime's amount + a certain amount of time in purgatory's amount...? if you truly believe she is the Bride of Christ, you can't give up on trying to believe this teaching. even if it takes you your entire life plus purgatory time till the end of time, never give up. that's all i can think to tell you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 We are the Church of the Incarnation. This is why Mary is so important to us. Not because she 'save us with Christ' like the Co-redemptrix people would say . . . but because she is the Mother of Christ, Mother of God. I am a Coredemptrix person and I don't say that Mary saved us. Christ alone is the Saviour of the world. His Sacrifice is what atoned for our sins and has brought us every grace and blessing. But Mary alone of all creatures has an intrinsic relation to the hypostatic union and a singular participation in the objective Redemption. This does not mean that Mary saved us. Christ saved us. We hold that there is no salvation outside the Church but we don't believe that the Church saved us, it was Christ's work and the Church is the fruit of that work. This applies to Mary first and foremost as the Immaculate Mother of God and Mother of the Church. God willed to place Mary in a singular role in the economy of salvation, as the model and exemplar of the Church, this does not mean that Mary saved us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 17, 2004 Author Share Posted February 17, 2004 the statement was not no amount will bring, it was no amount has brought. i'm 21. Al, please don't be upset...I'm Catholic again....I'm the kind of Catholic I've always been though...the kind who plainly and simply doesn't believe the Catholic Church on one of her teachings---ie, a bad one..a liberal...a heretic..or according to some posts here a Catholic who is Catholic in name only...I don't believe and I can't see myself believing...This means that I am outside of the Church..this means that I've been outside of the church since I reached the age of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 the statement was not no amount will bring, it was no amount has brought. i'm 21. Al, please don't be upset...I'm Catholic again....I'm the kind of Catholic I've always been though...the kind who plainly and simply doesn't believe the Catholic Church on one of her teachings---ie, a bad one..a liberal...a heretic..or according to some posts here a Catholic who is Catholic in name only...I don't believe and I can't see myself believing...This means that I am outside of the Church..this means that I've been outside of the church since I reached the age of reason. In my opinion you are a Catholic plain and simple. You are still struggling with the issues and are still open to the truth, you just haven't reached a conviction in your conscience. Since you are still fighting the fight and desire to be a good Catholic I think this counts. Something like baptism of desire. Orthodox Catholic by desire. Hehe.. I just made this up but it makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 hehe hyper, i'll always be upset for your problems, i care about you even if you're some random person i met on the internet. anyway, don't give up. doesn't matter if you see it now, keep prayin there is a chance you will accept the Church's teachings on this issue. i just really want to encourage you NOT TO GIVE UP on the Church's teaching, even if you don't believe it now, throwing in the towell saying i prolly will never believe this ain't the answer. for thou, hyper, Ave Maria, gracia plena, Dominus tecum. benedicta tu in muilleribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis PECCATORIBUS.. nunc et in hora muertes nostrae.. AMEN! ....:::::::................... ....IIIIIII.................. ......IIII.................... .......I.....II .............. .......I__I............ .......I.................... ......II.................... i---I....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hyper you will always be a Catholic - the hound of heaven has got you and you will never be satisfied by anything less. I am sorry you are in such pain. I think everybody has an issue they get stuck on. There is great grace in saying I accept this, I don't like it and I never will, but I accept this as my cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 I concur, hyper has too much love for the True Presence, Blessed Mother and the pope to be an Anglican. It's interesting to read about your struggles though. A close friend of mine joined the church, but has had problems with the doctrine and has flirted with Anglicanism. That's been frustrating for me and I've wanted to handle it in a sensible way. I think it frustrates me because she doesn't do her soul searching with nearly as much blood, sweat and tears and sincerity as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 I concur, hyper has too much love for the True Presence, Blessed Mother and the pope to be an Anglican. It's interesting to read about your struggles though. A close friend of mine joined the church, but has had problems with the doctrine and has flirted with Anglicanism. That's been frustrating for me and I've wanted to handle it in a sensible way. I think it frustrates me because she doesn't do her soul searching with nearly as much blood, sweat and tears and sincerity as you. yes.. it reminds me of martyrdom. Some shed their blood for the teachings of the Church, I suppose some are called to offer a continual death of self upon the altar of their will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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