cmotherofpirl Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Mark Shea is discussing this topic on his blog: [url="http://markshea.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html#329049459070281431"]http://markshea.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_ar...494590702814931[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 One of the replies to his post: "People need to read more history and watch less silliness on TV like 24. In the final years of WWII, interrogators got lots of information from captured Nazi officers. They got their best info over games of chess and ping-pong, not in the interrogation room. People being tortured will tell you whatever they think you want to hear. It is rarely the truth. That's just a practical, pragmatic reason for rejecting torture, even if you want to ignore things like the dignity of the human person and the commandments of Jesus." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 CatholicMax wrote: [quote]nd last time i checked we did not torture people. I know you may want to claim water boarding is torture but its not. torture has long term physical and psychological ramification a recent study which was done independently from the government on water boarding revealed that there is no long term psychological or physical side effects to water boarding. you are subjecting the individual to duress for the purpose of extracting information, I have no problem with insighting fear in an individual either through body language or Illusion(water boarding causes the illusion of drowning.) to extract information that saves lives.[/quote] Before I comment, I'd like to read this study. Would you please post it? Secondly, would you give specific examples of waterboarding saving lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Gah! Why did you resurrect this torturous thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 (edited) [url="http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2007/12/11/asia/OUKWD-UK-SECURITY-CIA-WATERBOARDING.php"]http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2007/1...TERBOARDING.php[/url] that's the classic example where a reputable person said it saves lives. i know others have shown it to be the case... which is why president bush is adament about leave open those types of possiblities. also more recently on torture consideration laws, the white has has said the same thing. [url="http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=waterboarding+saved-lives&um=1&sa=N&cid=8624453244158896"]http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=wat...624453244158896[/url] Edited April 11, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Please, let the dead horses rot. Quit flogging it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Maybe you should cut their foreskin off. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicMax Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 [quote name='notardillacid' post='1496975' date='Apr 11 2008, 12:49 AM']Maybe you should cut their foreskin off. haha[/quote] Muslims are already circumcised. although i think they would be opposed to complete castration What is the definition of torture you guys are using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicMax Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I am trying to come up with a definition of torture and finding it very difficult but here is something i think we can use. Torture: inflicting sever physical or psychological pain which has long term negative effects on an individual. If this definition does not work for you then I would like to know why and what alternative you propose. do not just say "thats a bad definition" or i will ignore you. a debate starts by defining terms something i have not seen anyone do yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I believe the Catechism's definition of torture was posted a few pages back and that has been the basic guideline we have been following for our definition of the term. yours is pretty decent and that type of torture would absolutely not be acceptable, though I think it possible that there may need to be a slightly broader specification than that. I am not sure, though... I just fear that definition might be used to justify certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" by saying that they don't cause long-term damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicMax Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1497101' date='Apr 11 2008, 09:40 AM']I believe the Catechism's definition of torture was posted a few pages back and that has been the basic guideline we have been following for our definition of the term. yours is pretty decent and that type of torture would absolutely not be acceptable, though I think it possible that there may need to be a slightly broader specification than that. I am not sure, though... I just fear that definition might be used to justify certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" by saying that they don't cause long-term damage[/quote] Yes the CCC definition was given but it is obscure I want something more exact, but it also needs to be broad. for example a definition that would include spanking children as torture is to narrow yet a definition which permitted cutting someones hand off is too broad. And i want to know what enhanced interrogation techniques you are talking about. we dont want to be protestant about defining this term. another words we need to create the definition objectively and not say "well i want this to be included as torture so i am going to define torture this way" or the opposite "I don't want this to be included so we will define it this way". its loading the question Edited April 12, 2008 by CatholicMax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicMax Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 [quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1496625' date='Apr 10 2008, 05:03 PM']CatholicMax wrote: Before I comment, I'd like to read this study. Would you please post it? Secondly, would you give specific examples of waterboarding saving lives?[/quote] There is a load of information in the recent supreme court trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 people scoff sometimes at people like catholic max when he says waterboarding isn't torture. but, i think most would agree that beating someone up,,,, like in a police interrogation, especially when there's known infrmation the person admits to having and impending damages... isn't torture. or even just roughing them up generally isn't torture. and that's not as laughable. so is waterboarding ore like roughing someone up, or more like cutting them slowly etc etc? it seems more like the former to me. i'd bet most wouldn't call it torture if it wasn't hyped up in the news recently. most probably just assumed it occured, and didn't think to think it so much wrong as a way of life, a way you deal with those situations. until they were told to think otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1496704' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:34 PM'][url="http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2007/12/11/asia/OUKWD-UK-SECURITY-CIA-WATERBOARDING.php"]http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2007/1...TERBOARDING.php[/url] that's the classic example where a reputable person said it saves lives. i know others have shown it to be the case... which is why president bush is adament about leave open those types of possiblities.[/quote] In that article, John Kiriakou said he believes that waterboarding is torture. Now, I know you think that torture is justified if it saves lives, but I've yet to see specific examples of it ever doing so. I'm not saying they don't exist, but since I haven't seen any, I'm awfully suspicious. All the same, even if torture [i]did[/i] save lives, I still don't think it'd be justified. One must keep in mind that the person being tortured may be innocent. To torture an innocent person for any reason is beyond barbaric, so I don't think people should take the chance when there's even the remotest of possibilities that the person is innocent and/or doesn't have the answers the interrogator is looking for. Heck, even if the person [i]does[/i] know something, I still don't think it's justified. To toture someone is to treat a human being like the lowest of animals, and of course, that's a sin against human dignity. Plus, you know, I doubt the torturers come away from their experiences completely unscathed. Would you be able to hurt another human being, listen to his screams of agony and terror, and be completely fine with that? Would his screams haunt you? I dunno, but I think the latter would be true for most people. Bottom line: If you acknowledge that torture is inherently wrong, yet you argue that it's sometimes justified, you essentially approve of an action that is no better than the one you're trying to prevent. [quote]also more recently on torture consideration laws, the white has has said the same thing. [url="http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=waterboarding+saved-lives&um=1&sa=N&cid=8624453244158896"]http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=wat...624453244158896[/url][/quote] That's completely unsurprising. Of course, they're going to try to justify their actions. Still, I've yet to see any specific examples of torture ever saving lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeenaBobba Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 [quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497717' date='Apr 12 2008, 02:01 AM']There is a load of information in the recent supreme court trial.[/quote] Well, then, perhaps you could post some examples since you're adamant it saves lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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