Torture

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1411032' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:57 PM']If loud music is torture, then I want the Amnesty International pinkos to go after all the kids in thump-thump cars and my neighbor on the next street.[/quote]

There is a difference between a kid who drives down the street playing uncomfortably loud music, exposing you to it for all of twenty seconds, and forcing someone to sit in a cell with a painfully loud sound system (which would usually require ear defenders) for hours at a time.

[quote]If running water over one's face is torture, then every parent who bathed a wiggling baby and splashed the kiddo in the eyes needs to be arrested.[/quote]

There is a difference between accidentally splashing a wriggling baby a handful of times in the bath and forcing somebody to lie under running water for hours at a time.

[quote]If withholding potty privileges is torture, then my elementary school teachers have some 'splainin' to do.[/quote]

There is a difference between making a child wait until the next break or the end of a class period to use the toilet (which is never more than an hour away) and refusing to let someone relieve themselves for hours and hours at a time. Did your elementary teacher ever stop you from using the toilet for over fourteen hours? Did your bladder nearly rupture?

[quote]All I ask is to quit labeling everything as 'torture' based on what the Godless leftist media shovels at you. I do NOT condone torture at all. Not one bit. But let us first be very clear about what is and is not torture.[/quote]

You seem to define torture as anything that leaves a physical mark on the body. Not all intense pain results in blood. I define as torture anything that meets the following criteria:

1.) An act that threatens the physical or psychological wellbeing of prisoners.
2.) An act that dehumanises or degrades them.

Your attitude seems to be, "Let's make a rigid definition of 'torture' and then see how close to the line we can get with prisoners without crossing it." It's not possible to create a checklist of taboo 'interrogation techniques' and then feel free to cheerfully employ anything that's not on the list. We have to use compassion when we set ethical boundaries. The question I would ask regarding torture is this: "Would I be willing to put my mother or my best friend through this if I suspected that they were guilty of a crime?"

Because Jesus asks us to love our enemies. Now, we could get into a discussion about what 'love' means and whether Jesus meant the same 'love' you have for your family or whether he was referring to a certain, more deserving subset of enemy (which must be explicitly categorised by a Vatican official and released in a document in order to be accepted). But that game won't work here. Jesus' statement is every bit as provocative as it sounds. We have to love our enemies. That includes the prisoners in Guantanamo, both the ones who deserve to be there and the many who are there without trial or charge. This is not a 'pinko' or 'commie' sentiment. It doesn't belong anywhere on the political spectrum, because it comes straight out of God. It involves plunging yourself into complete upheaval and uncertainty by looking at a man who may be plotting the most evil acts, and thinking, "No matter what you might want to do, you are a person."

The middle-aged man who repeatedly raped one of my closest friend over the course of two years and got her pregnant - I have fantasised about torturing him. Because of him she ended up pregnant at thirteen. (He punched her to make her miscarry.) Because of him she ended up in a psychiatric unit at fourteen. She was there for nearly two years. She's sixteen now and she's still not well. There wasn't enough evidence to take him to court, and he was too much of a coward to own up. Sometimes I feel that I would love to torture him until he screamed out that he did it. But then God brings me up short. "Love your enemies" is not an abstract concept. It means loving people like this, the authors of private and national tragedies. This means that I can't hurt them.

The Saudi intelligence services got information out of a prisoner who knew about the planned 7/7 bombings via dubious interrogation techniques. Staggeringly, their British counterparts failed to act on the information. If they had acted, saving all those lives, would that have justified the pain that one prisoner went through? No. That utilitarian ethic has no place in Catholicism.

To win, we have to make people see that our victory would be a good thing. Incidents at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib played right into the extremists' hands by giving them ready-made propaganda to use in recruitment and in fomenting hate. Jesus won not because he fought back, but because he was goodness itself. That's the only kind of victory worth having. What sort of triumph would it be if we won 'the war on terror' by stooping to the same level as the people whose ideology we're supposed to be opposing?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1411576' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:12 PM']To win, we have to make people see that our victory would be a good thing. Incidents at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib played right into the extremists' hands by giving them ready-made propaganda to use in recruitment and in fomenting hate. Jesus won not because he fought back, but because he was goodness itself. That's the only kind of victory worth having. What sort of triumph would it be if we won 'the war on terror' by stooping to the same level as the people whose ideology we're supposed to be opposing?[/quote]
You go, girlfriend!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1411576' date='Oct 30 2007, 04:12 PM']To win, we have to make people see that our victory would be a good thing. Incidents at Guantanamo[/quote]
What incidents at GITMO? The koran down the toilet? FALSE.

Simply putting someone into solitary is torture. If you confine someone enough and befriend them, you can convince them of anything, eventually. This is a protracted torture, isn't it? It's not in our interest to get false intelligence. Any techniques used are used to that end, not to obtaining false confessions.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411590' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:30 PM']What incidents at GITMO? The koran down the toilet? FALSE.[/quote]
No. Stress positions, extremes of heat and cold, sleep deprivation, being exposed to loud music for extended periods of time. And, in the case of Gitmo, that's assuming that we're even talking about real Bad Guys [i]and not somebody sold out by a clan rival for a bounty[/i].

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411590' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:30 PM']Simply putting someone into solitary is torture. If you confine someone enough and befriend them, you can convince them of anything, eventually. This is a protracted torture, isn't it? It's not in our interest to get false intelligence. Any techniques used are used to that end, not to obtaining false confessions.[/quote]
Again, you can perform all the mental and linguistic gymnastics you want but that won't square the circle that "enhanced interrogation" techniques are at variance with Church teaching, period, end of story.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]To win, we have to make people see that our victory would be a good thing. Incidents at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib played right into the extremists' hands by giving them ready-made propaganda to use in recruitment and in fomenting hate. Jesus won not because he fought back, but because he was goodness itself. That's the only kind of victory worth having. What sort of triumph would it be if we won 'the war on terror' by stooping to the same level as the people whose ideology we're supposed to be opposing?[/quote]

One could equally say that we shouldn't kill others, even though just war implies that, because he do not want to stoop to the terrorists level.

People can't imagine Jesus would torture his enemies, but could you see Jesus killing his enemies? Neither are easy to see. Both are what the truth, to me, seems to allow.

I have yet to hear anyone address why we can kill, but cannot torture in a just war.

[dairygirl4u2c]

where is it against Church teaching?
I don't want to be debating others if they will not follow suit if not for anything else tehn only because they have to adhere to church teaching.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1411603' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:49 PM']where is it against Church teaching?[/quote]
See posts 7 and 65 in this thread.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1411601' date='Oct 30 2007, 04:47 PM']No. Stress positions, extremes of heat and cold, sleep deprivation, being exposed to loud music for extended periods of time. And, in the case of Gitmo, that's assuming that we're even talking about real Bad Guys [i]and not somebody sold out by a clan rival for a bounty[/i].[/quote]
[quote]Now the interrogators could use stress strategies like standing for prolonged periods, isolation for as long as 30 days, removal of clothing, forced shaving of facial hair, playing on �individual phobias� (such as dogs) and �mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing[/quote]
[url="http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,1071230,00.html"]More here[/url] A Time article. I have no reason to doubt it right now.
[quote]Again, you can perform all the mental and linguistic gymnastics you want but that won't square the circle that "enhanced interrogation" techniques are at variance with Church teaching, period, end of story.[/quote]
It's not any sort of gymnastics. These are also forms of torture. Draw the line where you will, but realize you can't avoid torture if you're going to imprison and interrogate.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. ...In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.

--Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2297-2298[/quote]

Note, it does not say torture is wrong get info from pertetrators. It does say "frienten opponents" but one wonders if it's only frientening for teh sake of freightening that is wrong when they didn't say to get info, or jsut say torture is wrong, period.

Edited October 30, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411620' date='Oct 30 2007, 04:23 PM'][url="http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,1071230,00.html"]More here[/url] A Time article. I have no reason to doubt it right now.

It's not any sort of gymnastics. These are also forms of torture. Draw the line where you will, but realize you can't avoid torture if you're going to imprison and interrogate.[/quote]
Not true. Indeed, all the use of torture reveals about the torturer is a dearth of intelligence and creativity.

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1411685' date='Oct 30 2007, 06:23 PM']Note, it does not say torture is wrong get info from pertetrators. It does say "frienten opponents" but one wonders if it's only frientening for teh sake of freightening that is wrong when they didn't say to get info, or jsut say torture is wrong, period.[/quote]
With respect, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1411914' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:26 AM']Not true. Indeed, all the use of torture reveals about the torturer is a dearth of intelligence and creativity.[/quote]
Imprisonment itself is a form of torture. Over time, it can have the same effect. That is why I say torture cannot be avoided.

[dUSt]

I can't believe so many people have voted against torture.

Are the same people against spanking their kids?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1412028' date='Oct 31 2007, 01:15 PM']I can't believe so many people have voted against torture.[/quote]
I can't believe [i]anyone[/i] voted [i]for[/i] torture.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1412052' date='Oct 31 2007, 03:37 PM']I can't believe [i]anyone[/i] voted [i]for[/i] torture.[/quote]

Yah! Me too

[MIKolbe]

me 3