Torture

[Norseman82]

This Bears game is torture. Can I appeal to the Geneva convention or have Mike McCaskey excommunicated?

[S][N]

Dusk,

Shouldn't you be taking the position of; "What's the point of saving life if the soul is lost?" After all, isn't the soul the most important thing to a xtian?

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410719' date='Oct 28 2007, 05:19 PM']
Dusk,

Shouldn't you be taking the position of; "What's the point of saving life if the soul is lost?" After all, isn't the soul the most important thing to a xtian?[/quote]

First off I'm not an xtian, christian or catholic, I follow the way of life without belief.

Secondly, in Catholic belief the desier to commit a crime (and to aid and abet a criminal) is acting towards sin, if not sinful itself. If a person confesses the wherabouts of his terriorst buddy his soul is better off than if he let his buddy kill people....even if it took a little convincing to get it out of him

[MIKolbe]

spoken like a theologian.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410217' date='Oct 27 2007, 06:35 PM']
That's called MENTAL TORTURE Groo. Just because it doesn't harm you physically straight away doesn't mean it's not torture. Mental torture is far worse than physical.

And by supporting these you are in contradiction with the Church, I'm sure theres some form of punishment for that, such as no Communion perhaps.[/quote]


You just proved my point. Those are NOT torture, mental or otherwise. None of them cause harm. Duress <> harm.

What IS torture is a bunch of liberal pantywaste commies in Congress calling themselves Catholic.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1410204' date='Oct 27 2007, 11:01 PM']I voted yes...not because I oppose the Church on her teachings regarding torture, but rather because I oppose the loose definitions applied to the word 'torture' these days.

Bamboo sticks under the fingernails, pruning shears to the digits, electrocutions, drowning, beatings....are torture and I do not condone them at all, nor anything like them.

Waterboarding, psych warfare, sleep deprivation, loud music, unlimited free coffee with no potty break...are NOT torture and I DO support the use of these and similar techniques.
[/quote]


[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1410736' date='Oct 28 2007, 10:13 PM']You just proved my point. Those are NOT torture, mental or otherwise. None of them cause harm. Duress <> harm.[/quote]

The things you have listed are incredibly, excruciatingly painful. Physically and mentally.

I speak as someone who was prevented from going to the toilet for fourteen hours and seventeen minutes, after being given as many drinks of water and Diet Coke as I requested. I didn't know they weren't going to let me use the toilet. I didn't know they were going to keep me shut up in that room. Details don't matter. All you need to know is that it is excruciating and that by the end I was writhing in pain and in tears.

Sleep deprivation is also very painful. It causes hallucinations, nausea, oversensitivity to sensory stimuli (including a lowered pain threshhold), migraines, and a bunch of other things. There is a reason why psychological experiments involving sleep deprivation are deemed unethical. It's also doubtful as to the quality of information that a prisoner will be able to provide after being sleep deprived, as the few psychological experiments that exist on the subject show memory loss, confusion about the order in which events happened, and difficulty in processing complex sentences.

As for loud music, to be effective enough to induce people to talk about something that they don't want to talk about, it needs to be loud enough to hurt. Again, why do you think that ear defenders are provided to people who work in certain occupations? The noise on your average building site wouldn't hurt you if you were there for fifteen minutes. It might cause discomfort, but it wouldn't affect you properly. If you were exposed to it for hours it could pose a serious problem, mentally and physically. This is the kind of volume that is required for torture, 'interrogation techniques', or whatever else you care to call it.

These things are torturous. End of story. Euphemistically renaming them as 'duress' won't change the facts. We're not talking about semantics here. We're talking about human lives. That sentiment may get me branded 'liberal' (or even more bizarrely, a 'commie') but I remain convinced that no Christian could ever advocate such barbarism towards any human being in good conscience. Changing the language might make you feel better, but it won't alter what torture feels like.

[Justin86]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410568' date='Oct 28 2007, 10:33 PM']
I don't support torture in any way, shape or form. And please don't use this "Interrogation techniques" as a description for torture. Torture is torture, pretty little words don't cover it up.

Again I repeat. I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY FORM OF TORTURE, PHYSICAL or MENTAL.

To torture another human being to such an extend that they would agree to anything, and/or want to die from the pain caused to them, is a disgusting, immoral, sadistic act.

Ask yourselves this as I do myself before taking a position on any political grounding, "Could I do it myself?"

- Could I kill a man?
- Could I bring pain upon another human being?[/quote]
Thank you for making it very clear. You're against any sort of interrogation technique we use. We can now disregard all that you have to say in regards to this topic.

[abercius24]

Here's something many seem to forget about this whole idea of torture:

Only a monster commits an act of torture.

I would rather die before I did something so terrible that it made me KNOW I had become something like Jeffrey Dahlmer and John Gasey. It doesn't matter who you do it to. The act itself it so terrible that you would permanently loose all respect for yourself. Its better to do things the hard way than to take the easy way out and destroy your self-worth in the process. It's not worth saving the Free World if we end up embracing the evils we are meant to fight against. A man who tortures another can never truly be free.

Real life isn't like TV. In real life the stench of blood will turn your stomach rancid. You can't simply write in more dialogue to justify your character's actions. There are some things men cannot do and still believe themselves to be of any value thereafter. Torture is one of those things.

Edited October 29, 2007 by abercius24

[-I---Love]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1410688' date='Oct 28 2007, 02:02 PM']Despite your heartbreaking story, I think torture is sometimes necessary.
Some criminials are brainwashed to begin with. Their mental toture began long before we ever got to them.
It's not a matter of do unto others, its a matter of the value you place on information and thought.
In the narrow view torture can be viewd as almost anything...making someone sleep on a hard mattress or defyling a Koran in front of a Moslem? In the wide view torture can negate physical, mental even sexual violence (weither that be through scandal or actions). In the wider view its obvously wrong and a power play/bully thing.

When contries are at war and people are dying over sensless things just because you wouldn't want to be tortured dosn't mean thats not the way to go about things. Yes, each human life is a value and people shouldn't go about committing extortion, but if people's lives are on the line and a bop on the head can get it out of the guy or lying and telling him his villiage burned down, than do it![/quote]

Why is it not a matter of do unto others?

Your logic employs proportionalism which is contrary to all forms of Christianity.

The ends never justifies the means - many people stated this but you have overlooked it.

You begin your post by writing that "I THINK that torture is sometimes necessary." This is precisely the problem - this is your personal opinion which has not been formed in correct accord with the Church and a well-formed conscience.

[-I---Love]

double

Edited October 29, 2007 by -I---Love

[GodChild]

ah, sweet hypocrisy, you catholics are so good at fueling your enemies cannons you virtually give birth to them. The commands of Christ are clear .... there is no BUT ... there is no "love your enemies - but" - there is no, "love one another as I have loved you but" .... there is NO but ...

BUT .... if something contrary to Christs teaching suits us fine and well, we can employ rationality to justify anything. LOL - kinda reminds me of catholic apologetics about the good old witch-hunts, demon-worshipper burnings, heretic burnings etc ... and all those wonderful torture tools used in that splendid historical period when the love of Christ shone forth from His holy church for all the world to see ..... it wasn't 5,000,000 people tortured and killed, it was only 50,000 - ONLY 50,000 really, just 50,000 (oh I see, disposable nobodies)

I suppose its fine and dandy with you if Americans are tortured by the "terrorist" enemy? Afterall if you justify torture, that's of universal application I presume? No ... how convenient

[Justin86]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1410931' date='Oct 29 2007, 01:46 PM']Here's something many seem to forget about this whole idea of torture:

Only a monster commits an act of torture.

I would rather die before I did something so terrible that it made me KNOW I had become something like Jeffrey Dahlmer and John Gasey. It doesn't matter who you do it to. The act itself it so terrible that you would permanently loose all respect for yourself. Its better to do things the hard way than to take the easy way out and destroy your self-worth in the process. It's not worth saving the Free World if we end up embracing the evils we are meant to fight against. A man who tortures another can never truly be free.

Real life isn't like TV. In real life the stench of blood will turn your stomach rancid. You can't simply write in more dialogue to justify your character's actions. There are some things men cannot do and still believe themselves to be of any value thereafter. Torture is one of those things.[/quote]


[quote name='-I---Love' post='1410983' date='Oct 29 2007, 03:24 PM']Why is it not a matter of do unto others?

Your logic employs proportionalism which is contrary to all forms of Christianity.

The ends never justifies the means - many people stated this but you have overlooked it.

You begin your post by writing that "I THINK that torture is sometimes necessary." This is precisely the problem - this is your personal opinion which has not been formed in correct accord with the Church and a well-formed conscience.[/quote]
Look, until you manage to articulate very real, and specific guidelines as to what interrogation techniques CAN be used and are not considered torture no one in the government can seriously consider any of what you say.

Only a monster commits torture? What the heck is torture?

Why is it not a matter of do unto others? First of all, why is your first inclination to apply this to prisoners? What about the innocent people whose lives hang in the balance during these things? Where's do unto others then? Is the rights of prisoners absolute and override the rights of everyone else? Do you not see your own hypocrisy in this situation? Wake UP for crying out loud! We don't live in a perfect world!

I'm not saying I support torture, but what I am saying is don't expect anyone whose job it is to protect you to listen to what you have to say about this until you actually tell them what they can and can not do.

[Justin86]

btw, I'm still waiting for the Vatican document that says anything we approve of in Gitmo or our other prisons is torture.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Justin86

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1410801' date='Oct 28 2007, 07:36 PM']These things are torturous. End of story. Euphemistically renaming them as 'duress' won't change the facts. We're not talking about semantics here.[/quote]

No. They are not. End of Story. Semantics is exactly what I oppose. Tossing around the label of torture to describe any discomfort whatsoever is semantics.

If you have spent enough time in the military, you know what torture is. I am referring to SERE training, btw. Talk to one of your SAS blokes...they know what torture is. Talk to a Holocaust survivor, talk to a guest of the Hanoi Hilton. Talk to someone at a Streisand concert. What I listed is not torture. Uncomfortable, disorienting, scary, painful to a degree....but not torture. I imagine you would also consider pointing an empty gun at a terrorist, pulling the trigger and yelling BANG! as torture because it frightens them.

If loud music is torture, then I want the Amnesty International pinkos to go after all the kids in thump-thump cars and my neighbor on the next street. If running water over one's face is torture, then every parent who bathed a wiggling baby and splashed the kiddo in the eyes needs to be arrested. If withholding potty privileges is torture, then my elementary school teachers have some 'splainin' to do.

All I ask is to quit labeling everything as 'torture' based on what the Godless leftist media shovels at you. I do NOT condone torture at all. Not one bit. But let us first be very clear about what is and is not torture.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1411032' date='Oct 29 2007, 10:57 PM']All I ask is to quit labeling everything as 'torture' based on what the Godless leftist media shovels at you. I do NOT condone torture at all. Not one bit. [b]But let us first be very clear about what is and is not torture[/b].[/quote]
This has been what I've been trying to do throughout this entire topic to no avail. Instead the most I can squeeze out of anyone is "do unto others" as if that's supposed to make things any clearer.

These people clearly have never thought of placing themselves in the situation of someone who has the dual responsibility to protect his countrymen, and maintain the human dignity of the enemy. When you're in that situation "do unto others" can be viewed from so many different angles and extremes it becomes almost meaningless.

But of course we don't care about the people in this situation. Lets just declare everyone in the situation to be "monsters" from our desk jobs and pulpits safely tucked away in wealthy Western societies. Why should we be bothered to get off our butts and do some serious thinking?