Torture

[BeenaBobba]

[quote]Actually there are fallible things contained in the CCC which is what causes so much confusion. There are infallible things in the CCC however for example section 2267 on the death penalty states the CHURCHES position however it also states JOHN PAUL II position which is not the position of the Church.[/quote]

To be clear, Pope John Paul II's position on the death penalty is not in opposition to the Church's teaching, and since he was so learned a man, I don't think his position should be taken lightly, though that's just my opinion.

[quote]The USCCB as a teaching body is a joke. if you want to cite individual bishops or better yet Saints i have no problem with that however The USCCB is not a credible source in our debate.[/quote]

As you know, neither individual bishops nor individual saints are infallible. To say that the USCCB is not a credible source is . . . troubling. I would ask what it is they teach that is so problematic to you, but I fear I'd be opening up a can of worms. Besides, it's OT.

[quote]no that was not what you did. the way in which you phrased your statement was to say 'This is the position the Church takes'. if you intended this or not this is what happened.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Here's what I said:

[quote][b]Unlike torture, neither penitentiaries nor the death penalty are inherently wrong[/b], so your examples aren't completely comparable. Regarding the death penalty, however, the very real possibility that innocent people may be put to death is one of the reasons I don't support it here in the United States. Besides, the CCC states that the death penalty simply isn't necessary if there are other means of protecting society from violent criminals.[/quote]

P.S. Since we're focusing on this debate, I'll probably hold off on responding to your post on the racism/slavery thread, but I intend to get to it once we finish this debate.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1500588' date='Apr 16 2008, 01:18 AM']To be clear, Pope John Paul II's position on the death penalty is not in opposition to the Church's teaching, and since he was so learned a man, I don't think his position should be taken lightly, though that's just my opinion.[/quote]
I did not suggest that it should be taken lightly. what i did suggest is that his opinion does not out weigh the opinion of past Popes and Saints who were learned men as well. and yes his opinion is in opposition to the position of many other Popes (who were learned men as well). I have not taken his opinion lightly and neither has any other thinking person, what I (and many others) have done is tested his opinion and found it very wanting. however this is OT the point i was making by bringing up the Death penalty is very clear not the whole CCC is infallible.

[quote]As you know, neither individual bishops nor individual saints are infallible. To say that the USCCB is not a credible source is . . . troubling. I would ask what it is they teach that is so problematic to you, but I fear I'd be opening up a can of worms. Besides, it's OT.[/quote]
"Living wage"(don't know what that means)
Open boarders
Death Penalty
etc. etc.
When many(not all) of the Bishops in the USCCB are apostates i tend to be very skeptical of its unofficial (it does not speak for the Church) teaching. the Role of the USCCB is very limited in what it can Actually Legitimately do. however like all bureaucracies(just another word for virus) they grow and spread.

[quote]I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Here's what I said:Unlike torture, neither penitentiaries nor the death penalty are inherently wrong, so your examples aren't completely comparable. Regarding the death penalty, however, the very real possibility that innocent people may be put to death is one of the reasons I don't support it here in the United States. Besides, the CCC states that the death penalty simply isn't necessary if there are other means of protecting society from violent criminals.[/quote]
Yes and the implication is that this is the official teaching of the church. this is NOT. this is the opinion of John Paul II which was stuck in the CCC. I tend to favor what past Popes have taught and held, over a wanting opinion of 1 Pope who (in my opinion) was lacking in his understanding of the subject.

[quote]P.S. Since we're focusing on this debate, I'll probably hold off on responding to your post on the racism/slavery thread, but I intend to get to it once we finish this debate.[/quote]

I still need a definition for Humane

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500823' date='Apr 16 2008, 01:40 PM']I did not suggest that it should be taken lightly. what i did suggest is that his opinion does not out weigh the opinion of past Popes and Saints who were learned men as well. and yes his opinion is in opposition to the position of many other Popes (who were learned men as well). I have not taken his opinion lightly and neither has any other thinking person, what I (and many others) have done is tested his opinion and found it very wanting. however this is OT the point i was making by bringing up the Death penalty is very clear not the whole CCC is infallible.

"Living wage"(don't know what that means)
Open boarders
Death Penalty
etc. etc.

When many(not all) of the Bishops in the USCCB are apostates i tend to be very skeptical of its unofficial (it does not speak for the Church) teaching. the Role of the USCCB is very limited in what it can Actually Legitimately do. however like all bureaucracies(just another word for virus) they grow and spread.

Yes and the implication is that this is the official teaching of the church. this is NOT. this is the opinion of John Paul II which was stuck in the CCC. I tend to favor what past Popes have taught and held, over a wanting opinion of 1 Pope who (in my opinion) was lacking in his understanding of the subject.[/quote]

All of that is very much OT, so as tempting as it is to respond, doing so would derail our tourture discussion. You're fun to debate with, so maybe we can discuss this sometime in the future.

[quote]I still need a definition for Humane[/quote]

I provided that last night. Did you read posts 149 and 150?

Edited April 16, 2008 by BeenaBobba