Why Are The Churches Empty?

[White Knight]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1408418' date='Oct 24 2007, 09:23 AM'][b]From my observations this is a generation that well may become extinct. We are still in the last decades of an age group that nostalgically is fond of this type of worship. When I make my monthly visits to some of the more established religions, the pews are prominently dominated by the elderly. The newest or later organizations (LDS and Jehovah Witnesses’ Kingdom Halls) have different age brackets, usually consisting of elderly, middle aged, young adults and children but I suspect that many of them were firmly raised in their faith. Their services also greatly differ from other organization's in that they provide a portion of their meeting to audience participation and the interaction with even the youngest members of the congregation. I have noted the effectiveness of this technique.

[color="#FF8C00"]White Knight Response: Actually more young people are slowly finding appreciation for the old ways, its coming back, it has been said that this generation is sick of the immorality of the previous and even though they have inherited the previous generational traits, this generation is slowly returning back to the roots, Most people want a sense of structure and secruity, especially in our day and age, structure and secruity and tradition will be popluar again, like I said its going through another season.[/color]

This is another good reason why churches may be empty. It doesn’t offer anyone a chance to introduce new beliefs or to assist in reasoning the old ones. It really is surprising some of the dogma and rituals that religious organizations cling to just to comply with tradition. Even as open-minded and as encouraging as the Mormon religion is about members receiving their own personal messages from God but once this member has a revelation from God that could be introduced into the belief system of this organization it is quickly nixed in favor of only a few chosen being able to change church policies. People do not respond well to this. It is like being invited to sit in with a band and when the guest musician brings his or her instrument to the session they are told that their musicianship is no longer necessary.

[color="#FF8C00"]White Knight Response:Sometimes new beliefs can Strangle the life out of something, new beliefs aren't always good, its like saying Jesus isn't good enough, He is good enough, and if we preserve in Him we shall live forever, if we compremize on the important beliefs, we will lose the way and fall into the pits of Hell, Basically its like that, Rather people like it or not, or even myself, doesn't matter, Truth doesn't change just because someone does or does not like it. Its like abandoning the very source of our life, if you replace our breathing source with clorine instead of Oyxgen, the person will die, removing certian traditions and beliefs is like servering a important necessities for survivial, for life.[/color]

I also should point out that basic morality of some religions is severely outdated. Slavery was once accepted as standard not only in biblical times but a practice that continued well into the late 1800’s. Now it is no longer tolerated, practiced or accepted in our country with no prodding or insightful revelation from God. Birth control is an even more modern example. Did not God foresee that slavery and birth control would become important moral issues in our future? The Bible offers no perception or direction on these matters for our generation.
Good. This is what beliefs do, this is the freedom and Nature of belief and believing. Beliefs change. That is how we conclude most of our beliefs to Truths and Untruths. [/b]

[color="#FF8C00"]White Knight Response: Slavery and Birth Control are modern day issues however they both agrue the value and non value of life, Slavery even though it has a bad name, its attentions weren't always bad, sometimes the slave owners would help the inslaved people become better people, or even apart of their families, this system could still work too, especially if human rights remain are given to the fullest extent of the law. Birth Control, Now God is for Life, and this is connected to the larger issue, in the Old Testment it has been said, if a Woman is forced to give into labor and is at the mercy of her life or the childs, it is said to safe the child's life. This is in the book of laws.[/color]

[b]
The only thing that can stop a belief from evolving into a Truth or Untruth is ignorance, faith, stubbornness, pride and ego which many religions have already displayed at some time. These practices and attitudes are also not very conducive to the process of concluding beliefs.

I think you will find more people are receptive to Truth and honesty rather than a steady diet of faith and belief. People want answers and a closure to beliefs, they aren’t necessarily interested in romancing mystery or sharing or preserving a belief. Some religions have been around for centuries and are still feeding their members the same faith with absolutely no new developments or examples. People do not become full or satisfied from such nourishment, they become impatient and disinterested.[/b]

[color="#FF8C00"]White Knight Response: Only those who do not know the full value of the beliefs, the beliefs in the Church and teachings of Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church are so rich, that it may seem boring, but thats because the person never bothers to investigate the fullness or indepth the richness of the Traditions or beliefs.[/color]

[b]Then change the movement. I have never encountered anyone that had trouble adopting or collecting old or new beliefs. Beliefs are everywhere. So is hunger, sickness, war and poverty and these are all Truths that we can easily observe and evidence on a daily basis.

A more satisfying all-inclusive approach would be to group religions into one major movement of good that would aid all fellow entities. Kindness, consideration and charity do not require temples of worship and most can be freely and thoughfully enacted. They also have an infectious and beneficial outcome that overpowers any religious belief system. These act of kindness and consideration have been lost throughout the centuries in favor of a more performance-orientated, big-business attitude of displaying religion. Always keep in mind that humans share much more in common than they think. Beliefs are not one of these commonalities.[/b]

[b]Yes but organized religion and Sunday services do not teach trigonometry, biology or physics, they teach religious faith.

[color="#FF8C00"] White Knight Response: Yes, but those displays of these different topics and issues are all related to One Unchangeable Being, Truth, Jesus, who is God, He made all this into being, Using basic knowledge is a sign of absolute truth in many ways, because God is the source of all knowledge and truth, using these methods can provide evidence, So yes this is not a math debate or science, but those two subjects are connected to truth, especially the facts about them of course, so it does apply. Just because some people want to say 2+2= --4000 or 2+2=5 doesn't mean they are right, they are both wrong, because aboslutely and entirally 2+2= will always equal 4 no matter what, if it remains as it is, it will always be that way. These can be used to basic truth, basic truth, in everything, if theres facts about something, they dont change they are absolutes if they are facts, because then they are true, because Truth is Absolute, and Who is Truth? Jesus, who is God, and God is absolute.[/color]

But people do change and are quite unique. What may be True for you may not necessarily be True for them.
GOD doesn’t need a public relations office and I am not sure that a knowledge of GOD could be effectively promoted by what has already been defined as an imperfect species. There are over 33,000 different Christian religions all claiming to have an exclusive to this Good News and this “good news” is eating into the resources and the profits of the what could really be Good News for the millions who are hungry, impoverished, disease stricken and suffering from ravages of wars. [/b]

[color="#FF8C00"]White Knight Response: Actually no thats not the case, just because one person says Truth works for this person and not for another, its a flat out cold lie, Now unfortunately there is our own personal prespective on truth, but who's truth? God's truth, whom is truth, now what we as people ourselves have got to do is, surrender to God's prespective of Truth, because its the only Real Prespective that counts, and its not easy to accept, people can distort or try to distort real truth, but it doesn't work. Truth works for everyone, for all time, for all ages, no matter what. This is the problem with unfortunately all the Protestant foundations, they cann't agree, sadly a bunch of them are using their own ways instead of God the Holy Spirit's Way, which is the only real way to understand Scripture and Tradition, because God's way is the right way, and God the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father, and Son are, Its His Prespective that counts not ours so much. If God says the sky is Blue, its Blue, no matter if anyone says different.[/color]

[color="#000080"]White Knight writes: History has proven time and time again that there are cycles in time... there are periods of time of spring, fall, summer, and winter... everything goes through its bad and good seasons, right now traditionalism is on its bad cycle but a new spring is coming... and traditions and traditionalism will rise and be refreshed to a new generation of people. This is especially true with the Catholic Church. Life has its cycles good and bad, if ya stick by what has permitted survivability in the past, and you stick to your guns, you'll survive again.[/color]

[b]History is indeed repeating itself and the idea of practicing the same faith, attending the same service and listening to the same teachings for another 0000 years (you may insert any number here) may not appeal to a new generation. People will eventually learn that they can seek their own spiritual path and designate and resolve their own belief systems (possibly more practically and effeciently). They will learn that beliefs are plentiful and that any resemblance of Truth that was accounted for in the past can easily be recognized and integrated into their current existence without the assistence of organized religion. They will learn that kindness, consideration and goodness are not exclusive to any particular organization and that if being kind and generous is what they truly desire for their fellow humans, that there is not an institution needed to express or practice this. [/b]

[color="#FF8C00"][b]White Knight Response: Oh but it is, its just not being reported, the new generation is very diverse right now, many love the old ways, I'm telling ya a surge is going to pop up for the traditional stuff.[/b][/color]


[b]But most religions are not serving Truth today, they are promoting faith and segregating as many people as they can in the process. Take the example of your belief that Jesus is God, this has not been proven a truth (the existence of God has not even been proven as Truth) and there are many people who do not believe that Jesus was God. Those people who do not believe that God was Jesus or that Satan was Jesus’ brother cannot become a part of the institution that believes that Jesus was God. Religion should concentrate on what they do know is the Truth.
I think that there is some Truth in your comment. For all of our technological and scientific advances, humans have not really evolved spiritually by the same leap and bounds. We are still very primitive in this area. I believe in breakthroughs and we may be on the verge of one of these spiritual breakthroughs. Whether it comes in the form of provable science or whether another great human BEing emerges to teach it but I do not see any particular religion or institution holding or claiming the rights and patents to this new enlightenment.[/b]

[color="#FF8C00"] White Knight Response: truth is powerful and theres nothing wrong with truth at all, its the people, if truth divides people then its because people are refusing to summit to truth, and they want to believe lies unfortunately this is the real case, if there is division, and there is no doubt about it, its because they refuse to summit to the Will and Prespective of God, even if they know it or not to be what He really is, Which is Truth. Truth is beautiful yet very distrubing, and we must accept both ends equally in order to have a real appreication for it. What good is a half truth? its effective, but the fullness of the truth is even more powerful and effective. Oh and by the way ,there is some out there that are teaching Real Truth, and there getting bashed for it, its called the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, dispite the problems its having, its still doing the best work out of every single one in preserving the Truth, its receiving attacks from all over, because of the claims it makes, that which are true. When I was compremizing about certian things, I wanted to pretend Truth didn't extactly exist, however I know that has no substance what so ever, I was bsing... Truth is real and cannot be denined. Truth is Real, the existance of truth is evidence in many cases, and Even in Protestant teachings, some have remained faithful to Truth according to scripture, and even some other religions have some basic truth to them, however, the Catholic Church is doing the Absolute Best Job in presenting the Fullness of the Truth, which is evident to exist absolutely and entirally.[/color][/quote]


Replies are in Orange.

Edited October 25, 2007 by White Knight

[carrdero]

[color="#000080"]White Knight writes: Most people want a sense of structure and secruity, especially in our day and age, structure and secruity and tradition will be popluar again, like I said its going through another season.[/color]

Churches are proving that structure and security are not guaranteed, even in the most established institutions. Scandals are regularly surfacing and eroding the very fabric of what some religions are trying to promote. People are beginning to notice that there are many officials who are not practicing what they preach and they are starting to wonder if organized religion works or is even necessary. Some religions are even losing large amounts of money to legal compensations.

[color="#000080"]White Knight writes: Sometimes new beliefs can Strangle the life out of something, new beliefs aren't always good.[/color]

Actually when it comes to religious theology there really aren’t any new beliefs, just unproven beliefs that are brought back to be revisited or reexamined and I have never encountered a belief that was dangerous to research or reason.
[quote]White Knight writes: its like saying Jesus isn't good enough, He is good enough, and if we preserve in Him we shall live forever,[/quote]
This is assuming that Jesus even existed and if the Scriptures documented his life accurately. That is a lot of “ifs” but whether Jesus was fictional or factual, I think that there is enough wisdom in the scriptures to secure what many people would define as goodness. As a side note, beliefs aren’t meant to be preserved, they are meant to be concluded.

[quote]White Knight writes: if we compremize on the important beliefs, we will lose the way and fall into the pits of Hell,
I think that it is quite unnecessary to fear our beliefs or have our beliefs rule us. You are not considering the right and freedom that comes with believing. I believe that even GOD is understanding on what it takes for someone to organize, research and reasoned their beliefs.
Basically its like that, Rather people like it or not, or even myself, doesn't matter, Truth doesn't change just because someone does or does not like it.[/quote]

This is True but one would be hard pressed to find the Truth of a judgmental GOD who has purposed a realm like Hell for people who are slow or careful to believe or who have turned down what has been completely and absolutely evidenced as the Truth. If the pits of Hell were a Truth and the consequences of not following God’s will was that factually severe I would imagine that not only would there be not that many denominations but that the church’s would be brimming with attendees and that this discussion would not be taking place.

[quote]White Knight writes: Its like abandoning the very source of our life, if you replace our breathing source with clorine instead of Oyxgen, the person will die, removing certian traditions and beliefs is like servering a important necessities for survivial, for life.[/quote]

Not necessarily, there are many atheists who are comfortably inhaling and exhaling the same breath of life as theists without any regrets for a disbelief of GOD or participating in organized religion.

White Knight writes: Slavery and Birth Control are modern day issues however they both agrue the value and non value of life,

No slavery was a Biblical issue as well but instead of addressing the value of the slave’s life and freedom, God gives specific parameters in how owners should deal with their slaves. Birth control (a subject not evident in the Bible) is considering the value of life. As you may already be aware that bringing a child into this world takes a great deal of time, finances and responsibility compared to the time that it takes for two people to become intimate. There are many couples who do not have the resources to give this infant a valuable life but still would like to extend their love and share the pleasures that intercourse has to offer. Surely God must have realized this.

[quote]White Knight writes:Slavery even though it has a bad name, its attentions weren't always bad, sometimes the slave owners would help the inslaved people become better people, or even apart of their families, this system could still work too, especially if human rights remain are given to the fullest extent of the law.[/quote]
Enslavement automatically entails that one is owned and that there are going to be rights deserving of a few but denied by others. It is a concept people are not very comfortable with and just may be another reason why churches are emptying.

[quote]White Knight writes:Only those who do not know the full value of the beliefs, the beliefs in the Church and teachings of Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church are so rich, that it may seem boring, but thats because the person never bothers to investigate the fullness or indepth the richness of the Traditions or beliefs.[/quote]
Beliefs can be described and concluded to just two values. Truth or Untruth. One must determine which value represents their beliefs through diligent research and comparable reasoning and conclude them with verifiable evidence. One cannot own beliefs, they are here before we are born and they will most likely be some beliefs that are unproven after we pass. One should not favor beliefs because when the outcome is not to their liking, one can become disappointed and distrustful. This is not fair to the right and freedom of our beliefs and believing and I would even deduce lessens their value.

[quote]White Knight writes:Actually no thats not the case, just because one person says Truth works for this person and not for another, its a flat out cold lie,[/quote]
So if someone is truthfully diagnosed with cancer, the fact that I do not have cancer doesn’t work towards the continuance of my existence?

[quote]White Knight writes:Now unfortunately there is our own personal prespective on truth, but who's truth? God's truth, whom is truth, now what we as people ourselves have got to do is, surrender to God's prespective of Truth, because its the only Real Prespective that counts, and its not easy to accept, people can distort or try to distort real truth, but it doesn't work.[/quote]

But if GOD tells you that broccoli and milk are good for you and that you should consume great amounts of it, everyone should consider this Law? Broccoli upsets my stomach and milk is out of the question because I am lactose intolerant. Do you see where I am going with this? The same instruction and advice that you claim God gives you cannot (in good conscience) be given to me. I am quite different from you. My situation, my purpose, my circumstances are unique from yours. This is another area where organized religion is not qualified to teach; purpose. For what is good for you may not be good for me.

[quote]White Knight writes: Truth works for everyone, for all time, for all ages, no matter what.[/quote]
So from this last statement I assuming that you agree with me that both “homo” and “hetero” human sexuality should be taught in schools to kindergartens?

[quote]White Knight writes: This is the problem with unfortunately all the Protestant foundations, they cann't agree, sadly a bunch of them are using their own ways instead of God the Holy Spirit's Way, which is the only real way to understand Scripture and Tradition, because God's way is the right way, and God the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father, and Son are, Its His Prespective that counts not ours so much. If God says the sky is Blue, its Blue, no matter if anyone says different.[/quote]
Actually this alignment is not evidenced in any institution. No two people will have the same exact beliefs as another. That is what makes everyone different and organized religion an oxymoron. Usually some religious people do not fully understand why or what they believe but are just parroting or imitating their leader’s teachings.

[quote]White Knight writes: truth is powerful and theres nothing wrong with truth at all, its the people, if truth divides people then its because people are refusing to summit to truth, and they want to believe lies unfortunately this is the real case, if there is division, and there is no doubt about it, its because they refuse to summit to the Will and Prespective of God, even if they know it or not to be what He really is, Which is Truth. Truth is beautiful yet very distrubing, and we must accept both ends equally in order to have a real appreication for it.[/quote]

A good test to know if someone has the Truth is if one is practicing faith; if one is practicing faith, one doesn’t have the Truth. Truth must be thoroughly evidenced to appeal universally. Many religions do not possess this. They believe they have the Truth but if they have to believe it to be True or hope that it’s True, than most likely there is a possibility that it is just a belief and can also be subjected to being Untrue. It would be beneficial for you to accurately identify these two values. I believe that every religion has a bit of Truth there and a bit of good here but none are complete.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1409019' date='Oct 25 2007, 06:17 AM'][color="#000080"]White Knight writes: Most people want a sense of structure and secruity, especially in our day and age, structure and secruity and tradition will be popluar again, like I said its going through another season.[/color]

Churches are proving that structure and security are not guaranteed, even in the most established institutions. Scandals are regularly surfacing and eroding the very fabric of what some religions are trying to promote. People are beginning to notice that there are many officials who are not practicing what they preach and they are starting to wonder if organized religion works or is even necessary. Some religions are even losing large amounts of money to legal compensations.[/quote]

Since I'm Catholic, my perspective may or may not be of much comfort to your own religious ideals.

The "structure and security" [b]are[/b] guaranteed in the Catholic Church, not as so much its members and leaders are perfect, but that the teachings and essentials of the faith have been, and will forever be, preserved. Why? Due to the promise to Peter, the gates of Hell shall never prevail over His Church. Why would Christ give such a promise, but then lead His sheep astray?

Again, I've seen you express your own personal ideology before, so I don't expect you to agree with this belief that has been held by millions.




[quote]This is assuming that Jesus even existed and if the Scriptures documented his life accurately. That is a lot of “ifs” but whether Jesus was fictional or factual, I think that there is enough wisdom in the scriptures to secure what many people would define as goodness. As a side note, beliefs aren’t meant to be preserved, they are meant to be concluded.[/quote]

Jesus' existence is an established fact in the historical community, the debate is whether or not He was truely the Son of God. Of course, that is where faith plays a big role in the equation.



[quote]This is True but one would be hard pressed to find the Truth of a judgmental GOD who has purposed a realm like Hell for people who are slow or careful to believe or who have turned down what has been completely and absolutely evidenced as the Truth. If the pits of Hell were a Truth and the consequences of not following God’s will was that factually severe I would imagine that not only would there be not that many denominations but that the church’s would be brimming with attendees and that this discussion would not be taking place.

Not necessarily, there are many atheists who are comfortably inhaling and exhaling the same breath of life as theists without any regrets for a disbelief of GOD or participating in organized religion.[/quote]

Don't view Hell as a punishment, it's more of a reward. You can either:

A) Follow God and the absolute Truth, the reward being Heaven.
or
B) Don't follow God and His absolute Truth, and your reward will be Hell.

It's all about how you view it!


No seriously, that is when it becomes a little tricky. God is not only merciful, but He's also [b]just[/b]. Now think about this for a moment, do you believe God is all knowing and all powerful? If yes, then you will also have to conclude that He knows exactly what He's doing, and His knowledge and wisdom is far superior to our own. Just because someone may know of the Catholic Church's existence, doesn't mean they know her teachings (ignorance). Would someone be sent to Hell based on pure ignorance? To quote the catechism on this (since it'll do a better job explaining):

[i][b]"Outside the Church there is no salvation"[/b]
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

[size=2]Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/size]

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


[size=2]Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.[/size]


848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[/i]





[quote]No slavery was a Biblical issue as well but instead of addressing the value of the slave’s life and freedom, God gives specific parameters in how owners should deal with their slaves. Birth control (a subject not evident in the Bible) is considering the value of life. As you may already be aware that bringing a child into this world takes a great deal of time, finances and responsibility compared to the time that it takes for two people to become intimate. There are many couples who do not have the resources to give this infant a valuable life but still would like to extend their love and share the pleasures that intercourse has to offer. Surely God must have realized this.
Enslavement automatically entails that one is owned and that there are going to be rights deserving of a few but denied by others. It is a concept people are not very comfortable with and just may be another reason why churches are emptying.[/quote]

The ends do not justify the means (regarding birth control).

Try NFP = Natural Family Planning.



[quote]Beliefs can be described and concluded to just two values. Truth or Untruth. One must determine which value represents their beliefs through diligent research and comparable reasoning and conclude them with verifiable evidence. One cannot own beliefs, they are here before we are born and they will most likely be some beliefs that are unproven after we pass. One should not favor beliefs because when the outcome is not to their liking, one can become disappointed and distrustful. This is not fair to the right and freedom of our beliefs and believing and I would even deduce lessens their value.[/quote]

Therefore in the end, moral relativity is the answer?

I agree that we shouldn't grab onto anything without questioning it first, especially if we have our doubts; however, I may doubt the sky is really blue... and just believe it's trickery of the human eye and a conspiracy that is propagated by the scientific community to keep us in bondage.

There is a fine line between seeking the Truth, and seeking what makes you feel good. There are a couple teachings of the Church my flesh (sinful nature) doesn't like, but I believe they are true.




[quote]But if GOD tells you that broccoli and milk are good for you and that you should consume great amounts of it, everyone should consider this Law? Broccoli upsets my stomach and milk is out of the question because I am lactose intolerant. Do you see where I am going with this? The same instruction and advice that you claim God gives you cannot (in good conscience) be given to me. I am quite different from you. My situation, my purpose, my circumstances are unique from yours. This is another area where organized religion is not qualified to teach; purpose. For what is good for you may not be good for me.[/quote]

First you will have to take into consideration your physical condition. There are exceptions, if you had the desire to follow that "broccoli & milk" law, but you did not have the ability to carry it out, you would not be obligated to do so because of your health. Look at Catholic couples who are infertile, the Church teaches that sexuality in marriage has a dual purpose, and one of those is to be open to life (procreation). The problem is this couple [b]cannot[/b] procreate even though they have the desire to, due to biological incapability. Are they going to Hell? No. Next step? Adoption.

Secondly, if you do not have a basic standard to go by, with [b]defined[/b] boundaries, you and those around you are doomed. You may have seen this example brought up before, but I'll bring it up anyway. Let's say Bob decided he wanted to go out and murder someone, because that is how he handles his disputes. So he leaves his house and decides he'll murder the jerk (Tom) across the street, because they had a disagreement. Tom answers the door, and Bob points a gun to Tom's head.

[i][b]Tom:[/b] "Can we resolve our disagreement another way!?"
[b]Bob:[/b] "You could, but I can't."
[b]Tom:[/b] "Why not?"
[b]Bob:[/b] "Unlike you, I do not have the patience nor the willpower to do so. I feel more comfortable doing it this way, it's quicker and actually more fun."
[b]Tom:[/b] "But that's not right, it's against the law too!"
[b]Bob:[/b] "The same moral outlook and legal advice that you claim cannot (in good conscience) be given to me. I am quite different from you. My situation, my purpose, my circumstances are unique from yours. Good bye."

[b][u]*BANG*[/u][/b]

[b]Bob:[/b] "BOOM, HEADSHOT!"[/i]


Rather extreme, but you get the picture.




[quote]Actually this alignment is not evidenced in any institution. No two people will have the same exact beliefs as another. That is what makes everyone different and organized religion an oxymoron. Usually some religious people do not fully understand why or what they believe but are just parroting or imitating their leader’s teachings.[/quote]

If you're referring to beliefs in the broad sense, then I would agree. Not everyone believes the Eagles should've won the Super Bowl a few years ago against the Patriots.

In terms of religion, it depends. There are those who no doubt disagree with one another, it's basic human nature; however, when it comes down to the essentials of the Catholic faith, there are many who indeed agree with one another. Though they may get into disputes on which Saint is better (though vain), but that doesn't mean they're doomed to damnation.

To claim that if two individuals fully agree and share the same religious morals and values are nothing but puppets, is rather arrogant and... parrotish? I could've sworn I've heard athiests use this same argument to lump all religions together. Are you at fault?

[quote]A good test to know if someone has the Truth is if one is practicing faith; if one is practicing faith, one doesn’t have the Truth. [b]Truth must be thoroughly evidenced to appeal universally.[/b] Many religions do not possess this. They believe they have the Truth but if they have to believe it to be True or hope that it’s True, than most likely there is a possibility that it is just a belief and can also be subjected to being Untrue. It would be beneficial for you to accurately identify these two values. I believe that every religion has a bit of Truth there and a bit of good here but none are complete.[/quote]

(Emphasis mine)

Good luck with that one. Example: Evolution. The scientific community in general endorses this theory, but there are still millions upon millions of people on this planet that have their own theories. Is this considered to have universal appeal? I doubt so.

To base the accuracy of Divine Truth on the appeal of the masses, is probally one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen. The true path is narrow, and few travel upon it.

[carrdero]

[quote]Paladin D writes: The "structure and security" are guaranteed in the Catholic Church, not as so much its members and leaders are perfect,[/quote]

I think some people who are considering joining a specific religion expect religious leaders and members to act and behave in accordance to the ethics of their faithful beliefs. There is no congregation or religion that is perfect but from what religions have to offer and extend to secure non-believers and the importance placed on some religions to secure new members, there really isn’t much room for misbehavior or malpractice.

[quote]Paladin D writes: but that the teachings and essentials of the faith have been, and will forever be, preserved.[/quote]
Foods are meant to be preserved because foods are perishable, they will eventually go bad. Belief do not need to be rescued or saved they just need to be resolved and concluded. Truth carries more impressive weight than faith and theory.
[quote]Paladin D writes: Why? Due to the promise to Peter, the gates of Hell shall never prevail over His Church.[/quote]
I never met Peter. I do not know what kind of person Peter was. Though I can respect the belief of Hell as valid and worthy of further reasoning and research, it would be very difficult for me to put personal trust and value in Peter and his promise in the gates of Hell.

[quote]Paladin D writes: Why would Christ give such a promise, but then lead His sheep astray?[/quote]
I have never received such a promise from Christ or GOD.

[quote]Paladin D writes: Again, I've seen you express your own personal ideology before, so I don't expect you to agree with this belief that has been held by millions.[/quote]

Beliefs that have been faithfully upheld by millions of people for millions of years will still have to be directly confronted, reasoned and resolved. Quantifying a belief with the amount of people who believe in it with the amount of time that the belief has been encouraged can still produce the possibility of Untruth. One just has to look at the thousands of different established religions that have diverse beliefs and have members who faithfully believe in these doctrines. They all cannot be right or correct, can they?

And yes as a qualifying intelligent thinking human being I may have my own personal ideology but this is no reason for anyone to feel intimidated or threatened by this. I still have to conclude by beliefs just like anyone else and personally, I do not want to preserve my beliefs. If I was asked for a preference, I would prefer to upgrade them and trade them in for something more valuable. I would prefer to know if they were True or Untrue.

[quote]Paladin D writes: I agree that we shouldn't grab onto anything without questioning it first, especially if we have our doubts; however, I may doubt the sky is really blue... and just believe it's trickery of the human eye and a conspiracy that is propagated by the scientific community to keep us in bondage.[/quote]

Some people who are members of religions are not encouraged to question what they are taught and some are desparate to believe everything they hear. There are still some institiutions that discourage their members from examining their religion’s history and teachings or to gather comparable outside understanding.

[quote]Carrdero writes: Truth must be thoroughly evidenced to appeal universally.[/quote]

[quote]Paladin D writes:Good luck with that one. Example: Evolution. The scientific community in general endorses this theory, but there are still millions upon millions of people on this planet that have their own theories. Is this considered to have universal appeal? I doubt so.[/quote]

It won’t have universal appeal if it still remains in the realm of theory. I am not impatient with the conclusion of my beliefs and realize that it takes great deal of effort, knowledge, evidence and understanding to resolve them.

[quote]Paladin D writes:To base the accuracy of Divine Truth on the appeal of the masses, is probally one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen. The true path is narrow, and few travel upon it.[/quote]

Being the sole member of Patrickism, I can relate that this path is not only narrow but personal and difficult for others to find and unreasonable for anyone to follow.

Edited October 25, 2007 by carrdero

[Paladin D]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1409173' date='Oct 25 2007, 03:05 PM']I think some people who are considering joining a specific religion expect religious leaders and members to act and behave in accordance to the ethics of their faithful beliefs. There is no congregation or religion that is perfect but from what religions have to offer and extend to secure non-believers and the importance placed on some religions to secure new members, there really isn’t much room for misbehavior or malpractice.[/quote]

True, but if that religion (such as Catholicism) continues to stress the importance of constant examination of oneself, finding ways to improve one's life not only for themself but also for the glory of the Kingdom and the good of humanity, realizing that [b]we will sin[/b] from time to time due to our sinful human nature, I don't see any grave concern.

As long as the non-believer/possible convert is instructed on that from the get-go, and realizes that we too are human (like everybody else) and strive to be better, then it's the fault of that individual for not comprehending this fact, not the religion.


[quote]Foods are meant to be preserved because foods are perishable, they will eventually go bad. Belief do not need to be rescued or saved they just need to be resolved and concluded. Truth carries more impressive weight than faith and theory.[/quote]

Belief is subject to the human equation. To better illustrate, I'll take you as an example. You're a self-proclaimed member of the religion of Patrickism, and rightly so because not only are you the founder, but also the sole member. I apologize if I misrepresent you on this part, but you have no intention on passing this religious system down to anyone because you feel everyone does not have the same exact set of beliefs, and they should find the "Truth".

I'm assuming in Patrickism that [b]rape[/b] goes against everything that religion (you) stand for. I do too, rape is a disgusting act. However, let's say you have a cousin or nephew who follows your advice. His name is Jack, so his religion will be Jackism. Well what if he searches, ponders, researches, and etc the reasoning why rape is illegal (at least in many countries) and why it's considered disgusting in overall society. He reads the arguments, but concludes that they're false (whatever reason that may be) in [b]accordance with his conscience[/b]. Maybe he feels that the standards are outdated, and also points to how some societies exist today where rape is justified, therefore it can't be a universal "Truth", more of just a theory in progress. So later down the road he starts raping girls every week, but the cops can't seem to catch him. You find his acts repulsive and your heart goes out to the victims. You're faced with a moral dilemma:

A) You call the authorities and turn him in, because you are against rape and cannot stand to see the emotional trauma these girls have gone through. Thus imposing your religion on his.

or

B) You try to convince him to stop, and change his thinking. If that fails, you step back and walk away, permitting him to carry on his disgusting routine. According to your belief, you feel everyone should search for the "Truth". However, why should you impose your viewpoint on another individual whom he finds his way to be True?


You could say "Well he's imposing his 'viewpoint' on the girls", that's correct, but why would you disregard your own set of values that you find to be Truth, and practice an Untruth on the rapist? Why stoop to his level? To quote what you said earlier to White Knight:

[i]"What may be True for you may not necessarily be True for them."[/i]

I know this is an extreme example, but this is a vital issue to address. If you do not draw a line, this is what it eventually leads to.


[quote]Beliefs that have been faithfully upheld by millions of people for millions of years will still have to be directly confronted, reasoned and resolved. Quantifying a belief with the amount of people who believe in it with the amount of time that the belief has been encouraged can still produce the possibility of Untruth. One just has to look at the thousands of different established religions that have diverse beliefs and have members who faithfully believe in these doctrines. They all cannot be right or correct, can they?[/quote]

True (no pun intended).

Which begs the question, who is right? How are we to find out?

I chose to do so through the Catholic Church, and have concluded that it fits my convictions and beliefs. I firmly see it as having the fullness of Truth, I see Christ as Truth. Part of searching for Truth is to also set aside your own selfish desires. Like I said in my previous post, there are a couple teachings I honestly believe are True, but they're hard to follow.

Who is to say my standard on seeking the Truth is erroneous? Who's standard is Truth? If we don't know it now, what is the most truthful way in finding out the method to find the standard of Truth?


[quote]And yes as a qualifying intelligent thinking human being I may have my own personal ideology but this is no reason for anyone to feel intimidated or threatened by this. I still have to conclude by beliefs just like anyone else and personally, I do not want to preserve my beliefs. If I was asked for a preference, I would prefer to upgrade them and trade them in for something more valuable. [b]I would prefer to know if they were True or Untrue.[/b][/quote]

(Emphasis mine)

Don't we all?

The debate is how we go about doing that. You have one standard, I have another. Yet we share something in common, we both have [b]faith[/b] and hope that we'll find out the answer.



[quote]Some people who are members of religions are not encouraged to question what they are taught and some are desparate to believe everything they hear. There are still some institiutions that discourage their members from examining their religion’s history and teachings or to gather comparable outside understanding.[/quote]

It's sad that this happens, but fortunately Catholicism is one of the few religions that attempts that. Look at what Pope John Paul II did in bringing religious leaders together in hopes of peace, to understand one another. The Church encourages its members to examine their beliefs and history, so as not to be ignorant or simply blind sheep wandering around without any firm knowledge as to why they believe what they believe to be True. There are a number of Catholics that say "I'm Catholic" but don't know why, usually the response is "because I was raised Catholic" or "my parents were Catholic".


[quote]It won’t have universal appeal if it still remains in the realm of theory. I am not impatient with the conclusion of my beliefs and realize that it takes great deal of effort, knowledge, evidence and understanding to resolve them.[/quote]

There is no such thing as "fact" in the scientific field, everything is a theory. Even the most well established theories are still that, theories. Gravity, most of us feel it and know it exists just by being alive, you would think it was a universal truth on the characteristics of our planet, yet there are always a few screwballs that think they can fly, until reality hits them (pun intended). The Flat Earth Society is another great example.


[quote]Being the sole member of Patrickism, I can relate that this path is not only narrow but personal and difficult for others to find and unreasonable for anyone to follow.[/quote]

I'm not the smartest guy around. I don't have any college degrees, philosophy isn't a hobby of mine, I'm no theologian, not a scientist or any of those things. Just a guy who sees something and points it out for what it is, to the best of my understanding. If I'm wrong, then I admit it. If I feel I'm right, I'll make sure people know it. All [b]I[/b] know is this, God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, Christ came down to save us all and to do that He established a divine institution to proclaim the Good News and keep it from error. Due to our sinful nature, man tries to distort the Truth into a half-truth or an outright lie. The Catholic Church holds this fullness of Truth. Christ is Truth.




Didn't we just go way off topic or what?

[Winchester]

Persecution is probably what we need.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also. not to be the cynic always. but look at catholics beleifs in practice. only 30 percent believe in the real presence. only 10 percent believe in no contraception. both fundamental beliefs.
how many of the 10 percent are violators of the 30 percent? (my guess is actually not many if they are willing to be that 10 percent)

if you ask those 10 percent, assuming it's that much, how many say "just because i grew up that way i guess?". and of the converts, this is where you might disagree, look at how many were just converted when they realied there's actually decent arguments to teh CC, not that it's clearly true or anything. but they are satisfied with what they found out. and often are just on the buzz of that epiphany than anything else. also, how many were just married into it? how many are just pharisee's that are just holier than thou and live lives of great sin, to the CC, privately, but in public are church happy.
how many are just fundamentalists, that need the certainty. wehre if they weren't catholic, they'd just be muslim or whtever else there is to cling to.
how many true catholics out there?
you can even included those converts and fundamentalists if you want.
not too many, it seems.

....

Edited October 25, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Norseman82]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1408418' date='Oct 24 2007, 09:23 AM']What may be True for you may not necessarily be True for them.[/quote]

So 2+2 can equal 4 for you but pi for me?????

Look, sometimes there is only one right answer.

Either Christ is the second Person of the Trinity or He is not.

Either Christ is fully God and fully man or He is not.

Either a validly consecrated Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ or It is not.

Either having sex outside of a valid sacramental heterosexual marriage is a grave sin or it is not.

Either there is a heaven and hell or there is not.

[dairygirl4u2c]

to be fair, he did say "necessarily".

but i haven't been reading these posts so yeah.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1409289' date='Oct 25 2007, 04:37 PM']also. not to be the cynic always. but look at catholics beleifs in practice. only 30 percent believe in the real presence. only 10 percent believe in no contraception. both fundamental beliefs.
how many of the 10 percent are violators of the 30 percent? (my guess is actually not many if they are willing to be that 10 percent)

if you ask those 10 percent, assuming it's that much, how many say "just because i grew up that way i guess?". and of the converts, this is where you might disagree, look at how many were just converted when they realied there's actually decent arguments to teh CC, not that it's clearly true or anything. but they are satisfied with what they found out. and often are just on the buzz of that epiphany than anything else. also, how many were just married into it? how many are just pharisee's that are just holier than thou and live lives of great sin, to the CC, privately, but in public are church happy.
how many are just fundamentalists, that need the certainty. wehre if they weren't catholic, they'd just be muslim or whtever else there is to cling to.
how many true catholics out there?
you can even included those converts and fundamentalists if you want.
not too many, it seems.

....[/quote]
The fact that there are many "Catholics" who do not really beleive their Faith, and poorly catechized Catholics, has no bearing on whether or not the Catholic Faith is true.

Also, you seem pretty judgmental as to why people are Catholic or the sincerity of their faith.
And your statement about converts really makes no sense, and seems quite contrary to reality. Most converts to Catholicism have to give up strongly held beliefs, and often the approval of old friends and family members. And converts to the Catholic Faith usually stay exceptionally strong Catholics (unless they are among those who are merely endlessly "spiritually shopping"). It is a silly statement to dismiss converts as just being high on the "buzz of epiphany" that arguments for Catholicism "actually make sense." The arguments have to do more than just "make sense" for someone to convert - conversion often involves a complete change of life and giving up of deeply held beliefs, associations, friendships, habits, etc.

Endless cynicism and doubt is not a virtue in itself, and quickly gets tiresome.

[Magisterium]

[quote]But if GOD tells you that broccoli and milk are good for you and that you should consume great amounts of it, everyone should consider this Law? Broccoli upsets my stomach and milk is out of the question because I am lactose intolerant. Do you see where I am going with this? The same instruction and advice that you claim God gives you cannot (in good conscience) be given to me. I am quite different from you. My situation, my purpose, my circumstances are unique from yours. This is another area where organized religion is not qualified to teach; purpose. For what is good for you may not be good for me.[/quote]

No human body is Eucharist-intolerant!

[hecklingsoul]

Most Catholics I knew (before my reversion) were Catholic because of cultural reasons. Not because they thought it was Christ’s church. As they got older, they started to shed what they thought was a religion forced on them. Sure, they still put “Catholic” in the religion section of their MySpace page, but they don’t know why they’re Catholic or what it means. They’ve just always been Catholic.

But the pendulum has got to swing the other way eventually. And I think it is starting to now. There are so many teenagers now that are truly on fire for their faith. And my Gen X generation is starting to revert back slowly but surely to what they are re-discovering as Christ’s church and not just part of their family heritage.

[jeffpugh]

I like pie.

Universal truth?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='hecklingsoul' post='1409403' date='Oct 25 2007, 10:47 PM']Most Catholics I knew (before my reversion) were Catholic because of cultural reasons. Not because they thought it was Christ’s church. As they got older, they started to shed what they thought was a religion forced on them. Sure, they still put “Catholic” in the religion section of their MySpace page, but they don’t know why they’re Catholic or what it means. They’ve just always been Catholic.

But the pendulum has got to swing the other way eventually. And I think it is starting to now. There are so many teenagers now that are truly on fire for their faith. And my Gen X generation is starting to revert back slowly but surely to what they are re-discovering as Christ’s church and not just part of their family heritage.[/quote]
This is a good point. I am part of this renewal. I came into the faith a few years ago, but got into it couple of years ago with a bunch of other youth. Now we do diocesan wide events like all night adoration and we try and spread the gospel... my path has become a little more traditional though, because my group does the geetarr thing during mass, though I hope to introduce chant and stuff after I do a bit of homework on traditional music (better save that for another thread). Anywho I have hope for The Church!

[carrdero]

[quote]Paladin D writes: I chose to do so through the Catholic Church, and have concluded that it fits my convictions and beliefs.[/quote]

I think many people enroll into a religion because it is convenient or comfortable to their spirit. This is fine. I have also experienced that people would prefer one religion over another because they do not prefer some of the doctrines that the other religions are teaching.

[quote]Paladin D writes: Part of searching for Truth is to also set aside your own selfish desires.[/quote]

Yes but I do not think that anyone would be willing to abandon the search for their own Truth or stray from their own path in helping me conclude my beliefs. I am completely on my own, which again, is fine. I understood before getting involved in this that there would be no generous donations to further my research and that there would be no temples or churches erected or meetings of councils or congregation members to further my endeavors.

[quote]Paladin D writes: The debate is how we go about doing that. You have one standard, I have another. Yet we share something in common, we both have faith and hope that we'll find out the answer.[/quote]
I may have to correct a misunderstanding with your last statement but I do not practice faith. In fact, I am completely faithless. I apologize, but I should have made that clearer from the beginning.

[quote]Paladin D writes:It's sad that this happens, but fortunately Catholicism is one of the few religions that attempts that. Look at what Pope John Paul II did in bringing religious leaders together in hopes of peace, to understand one another.[/quote]

I recently read that article and thought that this gathering was considerate though I assume my invitation to this meeting must have gotten lost in the mail.

[quote]Paladin D writes: There is no such thing as "fact" in the scientific field, everything is a theory.[/quote]

Many things in science have been clearly documented and established as fact but that does not mean that even scientists cannot have belief and faith or that the public can have belief and faith in science.The interesting thing about science is that some of today’s Truths could very well be replaced with other Truths in the future. (example” cars that run on gas today could very well be transferred to electricity or propane in the future).

[quote]Paladin D writes: I'm not the smartest guy around. I don't have any college degrees, philosophy isn't a hobby of mine, I'm no theologian, not a scientist or any of those things.[/quote]

I am beginning to realize that one’s intellect is not really necessary to a study of religious doctrines and beliefs. In fact some religious organizations prefer suspensions of belief or leaps of faith in understanding their theology. I have been in many religious debates with some very intellectual people and I have deduced that they cannot reference and know everything and that any resemblance of logic and common sense completely falls apart when they try to coincide this with their beliefs.

[quote]Paladin D writes:All I know is this, God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, Christ came down to save us all and to do that He established a divine institution to proclaim the Good News and keep it from error.[/quote]

I have the same knowledgable understanding, I just do not know of anyone who can prove it as a Truth and when I ask them to provide evidence for this Truth, they tell me I must have faith.

[quote]Paladin D writes: Didn't we just go way off topic or what?[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]I will put us back on track because one thing that I wanted to suggest as a decline in church attendance may be a study in demographics. At a time when churches were built, towns may had been booming and the necessity for some churches may have demanded that more be built. Through the eventuality of conversion, people relocating or attending churches further away or just a possible disinterest could be contributing factors to some churches for receiving lower attendance. [/color]