Why Are The Churches Empty?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1408349' date='Oct 24 2007, 01:02 AM']Pardon me if I sound crass, but it's because people only care about two things: making money and getting laid. And nobody is scared of going to hell anymore (except maybe in Socrates' parish and others like it).[/quote]
amen.

[White Knight]

I think it would have to be the majority of what people are saying, Secular Humanism is on the rise, and it has even penetrated Protestant Churches, and it would explain why theres a decline in Mass attendence, and a astronomical rise of the big mega churches, like Life Church, Journey Through, Live Teen Church, etc etc, its because those Churches have incorperated into their system secularistic teachings, indotrinating them into ethier trusting themselves more than God, or just teaching God wants you to be Rich, Happy, Famous, and to come to church.


[b]That would explain why their churches "aren't" empty, and explain why ours "are" empty [/b]Secular Humanism is a easy route, and many have the desire to take the easy way out, and want to throw out the importance of going to Church "Mass" believing in God, living a example of a holy life (Grace, Faith & Good works Through Grace and Faith), receiving frequently the Sacraments, obeying the Ten Commandments, Prayer, and defending basic moral issues.


Why are Churches so empty, especially here in the more populated wheathier nations? its because we've gotten too comfortable with our selves... [b]prosperity is a blessing and a curse at the sametime, we get out of the state of being that says "We Need God", and we start to say,[/b] [b]"oh I have everything, I dont need God."[/b]

Thats my cookie baking in the oven.

Edited October 24, 2007 by White Knight

[Dave]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but Ironmonk, after that earlier post in this thread at my expense, your butt is mine!

[carrdero]

As a religious reporter for another forum, I visit a different denomination every month and in my travels I have noticed the same thing and from my understanding people are beginning to realize that they can have their own free personal REALationship with GOD without having to travel anywhere or to meet a church’s schedule. GOD makes house calls. Go figure.

One open-minded Episcopalian priest that I had known for years confided with me the reason for low attendence was because people no longer were impressed with the church’s pageantry, it’s outdated tradition and superstitious rituals. He confessed that if organized religion was to have any future, it would completely have to be rehauled and updated. I could tell that there was a certain frustration in his explanation and that there really was nothing that he could do about this.

Edited October 24, 2007 by carrdero

[White Knight]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1408381' date='Oct 24 2007, 02:33 AM']As a religious reporter for another forum, I visit a different denomination every month and in my travels I have noticed the same thing and from my understanding people are beginning to realize that they can have their own free personal REALationship with GOD without having to travel anywhere or to meet a church’s schedule. GOD makes house calls. Go figure.

One open-minded Episcopalian priest that I had known for years confided with me the reason for low attendence was because people no longer were impressed with the church’s pageantry, it’s outdated tradition and superstitious rituals. He confessed that if organized religion was to have any future, it would completely have to be rehauled and updated. I could tell that there was a certain frustration in his explanation and that there really was nothing that he could do about this.[/quote]


Unfortunately, updating tradition or doing a total makeover would kill the sacredness and the uniqueness of organized religion, I hate to sound offensive to ya, but sadly your preist friend is wrong on so many levels for this my friend.

[b]1) You would lose the crowd who does like the traditional classical style of worship.

2) It compremizes too much on the unchangeable teachings that all Christian Churches abide by such as God belief in God, The Bible, & basic morality.

3) It would die off quickly because it would become old too quickly, and the new beliefs would settle and start to get in, then there would be another change.. If the change starts, it will never stop changing, it will change so far that you wont see the originality of your beliefs and roots. Some people always want the newest thing and dont see the value in the old faithful, so whenever the next newest thing comes out, they throw out what they previously had, and so on and so forth. This completely throws out reverence to any system of beliefs.

4) It would just be a movement that reaches its peak then collapses on and in itself under the weight of it, it would lose ground quickly, Making change after change flowing with wind as opposed to standing firm on a solid foundation of truth.

5) Basic Truth doesn't change just because its unpopluar or doesn't fit with the times, basic physics will always remain the same, because they were created that way, Yes its shere complex nature is hard to understand and is often not simple, but the fact is laws like gravity, what comes up, will surely come down wont change, rather anybody likes it or not. Basic math is the same way, if you dont like 200+200+500=900-1000= -100 then thats tough, because its not going to change just because you like it or dont like it. Now with that math problem, if I dont take away or add anything to that problem or solution, it will forever remain the same, the basic principles will forever remain the same, its truth, and just because someone doesn't like it or does like it, doesn't mean its going to change for the better or worse. Truth is harsh, and isn't always eays to hear, or deal with.

6) The Sacred Scriptures itself says that we must be willing to preach and teach the Good News in good times and bad, in times of popularity and unpopularity.

7) History has proven time and time again that there are cycles in time... there are periods of time of spring, fall, summer, and winter... everything goes through its bad and good seasons, right now traditionalism is on its bad cycle but a new spring is coming... and traditions and traditionalism will rise and be refreshed to a new generation of people. This is especially true with the Catholic Church. Life has its cycles good and bad, if ya stick by what has permitted survivability in the past, and you stick to your guns, you'll survive again.


8) Truth is timeless, why because God is timeless, Jesus who is God is timeless He works inside and outside of time, but exists outside of it, not being restricted to it or anything for that matter. If anything its not the traditions that are outdated, its us, really... we are outdated, soon to be were born, we live, and we die and step into eternity, compared to Truth that is which never is out of date.. The Traditions that we've seen have been here long before we have been here, and they will surely exist long after we all leave this Earth at one point or time.[/b]



I must say.. even though you stated well your post my friend, I have to strongly disagree with you and your preist friend, and have listed my reasons why I think he is wrong.

Its not easy to deal with, but the problem isn't the Teachings of God, [b]God is perfect and has revealed His revelation through Men, through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium[/b], the problem is its Us as people, fact is not enough people know enough about their beliefs, this goes for all religions, this goes especially for the nations that are extremely whealthy or dont care too much about religion, as opposed to those who do care about religion tend to know more about their beliefs. The problem isn't with Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium, the problem is its People not knowing their Faith well. This is why the Churches, Synagogues, & Mosques are empty in more wheathly nations. Such as the United States of America.

Tradition needs to be held on too, its the very oxygen that gives live to our belief systems tradition has preserved scripture for so long and still does, without oxygen without tradition, we die.


Your Brother, in Christ, White Knight.

Edited October 24, 2007 by White Knight

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1408155' date='Oct 23 2007, 09:26 PM']To whom!?
I love the mass; I consider it a privilege to have such a beautiful mass. I try to go to daily mass whenever I can.[/quote]

We're some of the few who feel this way. Don't any of us look around at Mass? It's worse than an 8am college course in there.

[carrdero]

[quote]White Knight writes: You would lose the crowd who does like the traditional classical style of worship.[/quote]

From my observations this is a generation that well may become extinct. We are still in the last decades of an age group that nostalgically is fond of this type of worship. When I make my monthly visits to some of the more established religions, the pews are prominently dominated by the elderly. The newest or later organizations (LDS and Jehovah Witnesses’ Kingdom Halls) have different age brackets, usually consisting of elderly, middle aged, young adults and children but I suspect that many of them were firmly raised in their faith. Their services also greatly differ from other organization's in that they provide a portion of their meeting to audience participation and the interaction with even the youngest members of the congregation. I have noted the effectiveness of this technique.

[quote]White Knight writes: It compremizes too much on the unchangeable teachings that all Christian Churches abide by such as God belief in God, The Bible, & basic morality.[/quote]

This is another good reason why churches may be empty. It doesn’t offer anyone a chance to introduce new beliefs or to assist in reasoning the old ones. It really is surprising some of the dogma and rituals that religious organizations cling to just to comply with tradition. Even as open-minded and as encouraging as the Mormon religion is about members receiving their own personal messages from God but once this member has a revelation from God that could be introduced into the belief system of this organization it is quickly nixed in favor of only a few chosen being able to change church policies. People do not respond well to this. It is like being invited to sit in with a band and when the guest musician brings his or her instrument to the session they are told that their musicianship is no longer necessary.
I also should point out that basic morality of some religions is severely outdated. Slavery was once accepted as standard not only in biblical times but a practice that continued well into the late 1800’s. Now it is no longer tolerated, practiced or accepted in our country with no prodding or insightful revelation from God. Birth control is an even more modern example. Did not God foresee that slavery and birth control would become important moral issues in our future? The Bible offers no perception or direction on these matters for our generation.

[quote]White Knight writes: It would die off quickly because it would become old too quickly, and the new beliefs would settle and start to get in, then there would be another change.. If the change starts, it will never stop changing, it will change so far that you wont see the originality of your beliefs and roots.[/quote]

Good. This is what beliefs do, this is the freedom and Nature of belief and believing. Beliefs change. That is how we conclude most of our beliefs to Truths and Untruths.
The only thing that can stop a belief from evolving into a Truth or Untruth is ignorance, faith, stubbornness, pride and ego which many religions have already displayed at some time. These practices and attitudes are also not very conducive to the process of concluding beliefs.

[quote]White Knight writes:Some people always want the newest thing and dont see the value in the old faithful, so whenever the next newest thing comes out, they throw out what they previously had, and so on and so forth. This completely throws out reverence to any system of beliefs.[/quote]

I think you will find more people are receptive to Truth and honesty rather than a steady diet of faith and belief. People want answers and a closure to beliefs, they aren’t necessarily interested in romancing mystery or sharing or preserving a belief. Some religions have been around for centuries and are still feeding their members the same faith with absolutely no new developments or examples. People do not become full or satisfied from such nourishment, they become impatient and disinterested.

[quote]White Knight writes: It would just be a movement that reaches its peak then collapses on and in itself under the weight of it, it would lose ground quickly, Making change after change flowing with wind as opposed to standing firm on a solid foundation of truth.[/quote]

Then change the movement. I have never encountered anyone that had trouble adopting or collecting old or new beliefs. Beliefs are everywhere. So is hunger, sickness, war and poverty and these are all Truths that we can easily observe and evidence on a daily basis.
A more satisfying all-inclusive approach would be to group religions into one major movement of good that would aid all fellow entities. Kindness, consideration and charity do not require temples of worship and most can be freely and thoughfully enacted. They also have an infectious and beneficial outcome that overpowers any religious belief system. These act of kindness and consideration have been lost throughout the centuries in favor of a more performance-orientated, big-business attitude of displaying religion. Always keep in mind that humans share much more in common than they think. Beliefs are not one of these commonalities.
[quote]White Knight writes: Basic Truth doesn't change just because its unpopluar or doesn't fit with the times, basic physics will always remain the same, because they were created that way, Yes its shere complex nature is hard to understand and is often not simple, but the fact is laws like gravity, what comes up, will surely come down wont change, rather anybody likes it or not. Basic math is the same way, if you dont like 200+200+500=900-1000= -100 then thats tough, because its not going to change just because you like it or dont like it.[/quote]

Yes but organized religion and Sunday services do not teach trigonometry, biology or physics, they teach religious faith.

[quote]White Knight writes: Basic Truth doesn't change just because its unpopluar or doesn't fit with the times, basic physics will always remain the same, because they were created that way,[/quote]
But people do change and are quite unique. What may be True for you may not necessarily be True for them.

[quote]White Knight writes: The Sacred Scriptures itself says that we must be willing to preach and teach the Good News in good times and bad, in times of popularity and unpopularity.[/quote]

GOD doesn’t need a public relations office and I am not sure that a knowledge of GOD could be effectively promoted by what has already been defined as an imperfect species. There are over 33,000 different Christian religions all claiming to have an exclusive to this Good News and this “good news” is eating into the resources and the profits of the what could really be Good News for the millions who are hungry, impoverished, disease stricken and suffering from ravages of wars.

[color="#000080"]White Knight writes: History has proven time and time again that there are cycles in time... there are periods of time of spring, fall, summer, and winter... everything goes through its bad and good seasons, right now traditionalism is on its bad cycle but a new spring is coming... and traditions and traditionalism will rise and be refreshed to a new generation of people. This is especially true with the Catholic Church. Life has its cycles good and bad, if ya stick by what has permitted survivability in the past, and you stick to your guns, you'll survive again.[/color]

History is indeed repeating itself and the idea of practicing the same faith, attending the same service and listening to the same teachings for another 0000 years (you may insert any number here) may not appeal to a new generation. People will eventually learn that they can seek their own spiritual path and designate and resolve their own belief systems (possibly more practically and effeciently). They will learn that beliefs are plentiful and that any resemblance of Truth that was accounted for in the past can easily be recognized and integrated into their current existence without the assistence of organized religion. They will learn that kindness, consideration and goodness are not exclusive to any particular organization and that if being kind and generous is what they truly desire for their fellow humans, that there is not an institution needed to express or practice this.

[quote]White Knight writes: Truth is timeless, why because God is timeless, Jesus who is God is timeless He works inside and outside of time, but exists outside of it, not being restricted to it or anything for that matter.[/quote]
But most religions are not serving Truth today, they are promoting faith and segregating as many people as they can in the process. Take the example of your belief that Jesus is God, this has not been proven a truth (the existence of God has not even been proven as Truth) and there are many people who do not believe that Jesus was God. Those people who do not believe that God was Jesus or that Satan was Jesus’ brother cannot become a part of the institution that believes that Jesus was God. Religion should concentrate on what they do know is the Truth.

[quote]White Knight writes: If anything its not the traditions that are outdated, its us, really... we are outdated, soon to be were born, we live, and we die and step into eternity, compared to Truth that is which never is out of date.. The Traditions that we've seen have been here long before we have been here, and they will surely exist long after we all leave this Earth at one point or time.[/quote]
I think that there is some Truth in your comment. For all of our technological and scientific advances, humans have not really evolved spiritually by the same leap and bounds. We are still very primitive in this area. I believe in breakthroughs and we may be on the verge of one of these spiritual breakthroughs. Whether it comes in the form of provable science or whether another great human BEing emerges to teach it but I do not see any particular religion or institution holding or claiming the rights and patents to this new enlightenment.

[LouisvilleFan]

Carrdero, someday I think you'll get tired of trying to figure out "what's True for you."

[Maggyie]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1408275' date='Oct 23 2007, 11:39 PM']There is something to this. I think the romance and adventure of orthodoxy is definitely something we need to impress upon people. I'm interested in the how though, my parish is full, literally overflowing, we decided as a community to start phasing out the new Mass. We have weekly NFP groups. Regular exposition of the Eucharistic Christ. A daily Rosary. And a shocking number of people who confess their sins daily (I'm one of them).[/quote]

Pardonez-moi, but what is the general vicinity of this parish? It sounds most lovely.

[hyperdulia again]

Myhometown, Myhomestate

[carrdero]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1408505' date='Oct 24 2007, 12:20 PM']Carrdero, someday I think you'll get tired of trying to figure out "what's True for you."[/quote]
Not before someone else tires of trying to figure it out for me.

Edited October 24, 2007 by carrdero

[jeffpugh]

[quote]People do not respond well to this. It is like being invited to sit in with a band and when the guest musician brings his or her instrument to the session they are told that their musicianship is no longer necessary.[/quote]
Just a comment, I don't think your analogy is very complete. Being a musician myself, I would honestly have to say that the analogy is missing one key element: the music. In other words, without it, the band is chaos. Tradition/Orthodoxy is the music in which the ensemble plays. The parts have been written in the past, the musicians that are there usually or as guests will have their part written for them. Orthopraxy is playing the music there. I think the director would dismiss the guest if he/she decided to not follow instructions of the music or the conductor. On a side note, the conductor has much responsibility for how Orthodoxy is interpreted.

[quote post='1408595' date='Oct 24 2007, 01:58 PM']Not before someone else tires of trying to figure it out for me.[/quote]
Indeed, just a comment, I think we heed to his words. Anyways, glad to see you posting here Carrdero!

[carrdero]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1408616' date='Oct 24 2007, 02:39 PM']Just a comment, I don't think your analogy is very complete. Being a musician myself, I would honestly have to say that the analogy is missing one key element: the music. In other words, without it, the band is chaos. Tradition/Orthodoxy is the music in which the ensemble plays. The parts have been written in the past, the musicians that are there usually or as guests will have their part written for them. Orthopraxy is playing the music there. I think the director would dismiss the guest if he/she decided to not follow instructions of the music or the conductor. On a side note, the conductor has much responsibility for how Orthodoxy is interpreted.
Indeed, just a comment, I think we heed to his words. Anyways, glad to see you posting here Carrdero![/quote]
The music analogy was used to describe some religions advertising an openess to other musicians but when the invited musicians finally arrive they discover that it is a closed session. Religions have written an incomplete song and seem to be stuck on the lyrics or a suitable bridge to link the versus to the choruses. They invite other musicians to the sessions for assistance but as it turns out they really are not interested in these other musicians ideas or talent but instead prefer to figure it out for themselves (but the other invited musicians can still hang out and possibly provide funding or support towards this band). What eventually happens is the longer it takes for this band to complete this composition, the more the song becomes outdated and is no longer listenable or reflective of our current time.

The invited guest musicians see that their time and efforts have been wasted. Their input unwelcomed and their talent as musicians unappreciated, these people may get together to form their own band and through their sound and talents may persuade fans and followers away from the other band. In religion this analogy happens about every century and sometimes it could be the emergence of many "bands" and this may account for poor ticket sales and empty pews.

Edited October 24, 2007 by carrdero

[jeffpugh]

Your point is more taken now that the analogy has been reshaped. That is, I understand what you're saying now. Well versed in running w/ the musician thing, btw.

[Mercy me]

Yes, secular humanism is a huge factor but I would like to add another, dare I say diabolical reason, the attack on religion as the source of the world's troubles. Everything from the abuses of the prince-bishops in Germany, the inquisition, the crusades and 9/11. All are used to show the evils of religion. I have been hearing and seeing this is Europe more than here but it is out there.