Why Are The Churches Empty?

[Lena]

[quote]Our culture has embraced relativism to the point that no one can be wrong, just different. Thus why be Catholic... it has more rules and restrictions and is no more right than anyone else...[/quote]

I agree with this also, as being problematic---and religion is such a touchy subject, so debatable among people.

Oh, I would like to add that I have heard of many reasons from some people leaving the church/not attending because of the Church's stances on many hot issues today, such as homosexuality. "You exclude people from the church" is something I hear quite a bit. Also, many people think the Church isn't in alliance with feminist values today (like, "why can't women be priests"). This is just conversations I've overheard or had with people on their views of the church. It's viewed as an "outdated" religion.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:52 PM']Because going to church has become too secularized, and most churches attempt, and fail to draw people in by becoming more like the world instead of less like the world.

Let's learn from Coke (the church). It dominated the cola scene. Pepsi (the world) started winning taste tests. Coke got scared and tried to become more like Pepsi, making new Coke. It failed miserably because people didn't want more Pepsi, they wanted the Real Thing.

I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]

I totally concur with this.

[Adrestia]

why?

self-reliance. laziness.

how do we fix it?

become better Catholics so we can better witness to God's infinite love.

pray for our clergy and lay ministers (especially those who volunteer to catechise public school)

[Socrates]

Okay, I can't speak for the Church in the rest of Western world, but in my parish, the church is certainly not empty. In fact, if you arrive late, you may have trouble finding a seat at some of the four Sunday masses. Our parish has more than doubled in size during the past ten years, and has grown just as fast before that, being located in a smallish town that is not historically Catholic. The parish also has a strong youthful presence, and people of all ages can be found at mass.

Of course, the reason for parish's growth will likely remain a dark mystery to most liberals.
We have fairly old-fashioned, "boring" reverent liturgies, including a Sunday afternoon Tridentine Mass, with mostly old-fashioned, un-hip hymns.
No U2 masses, polka masses, or techno clown/Barney masses, or anything else clever or relevent to our times.

Due to outmoded sexist policies, no girls are allowed in the sancturary, but somehow women come to mass anyway, and few complain.

The priests are solidly orthodox, and preach that boring, old-fashioned morality that nobody wants to hear. They will condemn sins such as contraception, abortion, and supporting pro-abort pols, and other things that drive all right-minded modern people from Church.
Evidentally, quite a few of the parishioners take this to heart, as evidenced by all the small children crawling over the pews.
And all that suffocating old-fashioned Catholic guilt keeps the lines to the confessional long every Saturday afternoon and weekday mornings and evenings. In fact, if you don't come early, you might not have time to have your confession heard.

People also go to the perpetual adoration in the adoration chapel (the old Church, recently restored to its outmoded, irrelevent pre-Vatican II glory), and take part in other outmoded, irrelevent Catholic activities.

So who knows why the church is not empty - other than that we're a bunch of backwards, benighted ultra-conservative dinosaurs, unlike the dissident, contracepting, liberal non-churchgoers, who as every secular news magazine will inform you, are the Future of the Church.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Socrates

[MissyP89]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1408240' date='Oct 23 2007, 09:48 PM']I would argue your third point. Apologetics and such are not new to the Church. Most the arguments have been around for at least 500 years. Theres not a whole lot of 'new' stuff in apologetics.

Instead no one knows whose right, because the world is saying everyone is right. Our culture has embraced relativism to the point that no one can be wrong, just different. Thus why be Catholic... it has more rules and restrictions and is no more right than anyone else...

Thats the problem.[/quote]

Exactly right. Everyone is right, so why bother? I mean, who would [i]want[/i] to avoid all the heady pleasures of this world when there are no consequences? I certainly wouldn't, and didn't, for a long time.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1408265' date='Oct 23 2007, 10:13 PM']Okay, I can't speak for the Church in the rest of Western world, but in my parish, the church is certainly not empty. In fact, if you arrive late, you may have trouble finding a seat at some of the four Sunday masses. Our parish has more than doubled in size during the past ten years, and has grown just as fast before that, being located in a smallish town that is not historically Catholic. The parish also has a strong youthful presence, and people of all ages can be found at mass.

Of course, the reason for parish's growth will likely remain a dark mystery to most liberals.
We have fairly old-fashioned, "boring" reverent liturgies, inlcuding a Sunday afternoon Tridentine Mass, with mostly old-fashioned, un-hip hymns.
No U2 masses, polka masses, or techno clown/Barney masses, or anything else clever or relevent to our times.

Due to outmoded sexist policies, no girls are allowed in the sancturary, but somehow women come to mass anyway, and few complain.

The priests are solidly orthodox, and preach that boring, old-fashioned morality that nobody wants to hear. They will condemn sins such as contraception, abortion, and supporting pro-abort pols, and other things that drive all right-minded modern people from Church.
Evidentally, quite a few of the parishioners take this to heart, as evidenced by all the small children crawling over the pews.
And all that suffocating old-fashioned Catholic guilt keeps the lines to the confessional long every Saturday afternoon and weekday mornings and evenings. In fact, if you don't come early, you might not have time to have your confession heard.

People also go to the perpetual adoration in the adoration chapel (the old Church, recently restored to its outmoded, irrelevent pre-Vatican II glory), and take part in other outmoded, irrelevent Catholic activities.

So who knows why the church is not empty - other than that we're a bunch of backwards, benighted ultra-conservative dinosaurs, unlike the dissident, contracepting, liberal non-churchgoers, who as every secular news magazine will inform you, are the Future of the Church.[/quote]
Wow. This I gotta see... only if I was living in the states... haha... but I guess that's sorta what I am hoping that people will pick up. The old fashioned, "obsolete" ritual. Ha. God bless your clergy, Socrates.

[CatherineM]

I read something earlier this semester in my Creeds class about this topic in the book, "The Holy Longing" by Ronald Rolheiser, OMI. Researchers studying this have found that "first, while church attendance is dropping alarmingly, the churches themselves have great staying power. Thus, while not wanting to attend regularly and be involved in their churches, people do continue to want to identify themselves religiously with a certain label (I'm a Roman Catholic) and want, as well, to continue to receive rites of passage (baptism, marriage, and burial) within their churches. Moreover, they want to see their churches continue, even though they are not attending them. They want the church to be there when they want it, even if they do not want it very often. As a Canadian sociologist of religion, Reginald Bibby, puts it: "People aren't leaving their churches, they just aren't going to them."...research on the question of declining church attendance shows that most people who do not practice regularly do not have the questions that the Sam Keens have nor the angers of the church's harshest critics. Anger and hard theoretical questions about the church are not the biggest problem; indifference and a culture of individualism are. Most people who are not at church on Sunday are not at home brooding about the church's faults or reading Sam Keen's book, they are sleeping, shopping, skiing, jogging in the park, watching baseball and football games, working on their lawns and gardens, and visiting with family and friends. They do not have huge ecclesiology questions. As regards church, they are on sabbatical. They want a kingdom, but not a church....Our theological libraries are full of excellent books on ecclesiology, but church attendance continues to plummet. Good theology is important, but something else too is needed, a better spirituality of ecclesiology, better practical, personal reasons why, to have a kingdom, we want and need a church."

When I have talked to people about why they longer attend church, the overwhelming opinion I have is that they are just tired. They are physically tired by the time Sunday comes, and they are tired of thinking that they are being told what to do, and tired of pretending that they agree with the church's policies on things like birth control. Just as many people feel like they are too tired to exercise, but yet actually get more energy once they start exercising, we have to do the same thing. We have to show an energy so electric, that they are drawn back to the church like a moth to the flame.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1408265' date='Oct 23 2007, 10:13 PM']Okay, I can't speak for the Church in the rest of Western world, but in my parish, the church is certainly not empty. In fact, if you arrive late, you may have trouble finding a seat at some of the four Sunday masses. Our parish has more than doubled in size during the past ten years, and has grown just as fast before that, being located in a smallish town that is not historically Catholic. The parish also has a strong youthful presence, and people of all ages can be found at mass.

Of course, the reason for parish's growth will likely remain a dark mystery to most liberals.
We have fairly old-fashioned, "boring" reverent liturgies, including a Sunday afternoon Tridentine Mass, with mostly old-fashioned, un-hip hymns.
No U2 masses, polka masses, or techno clown/Barney masses, or anything else clever or relevent to our times.

Due to outmoded sexist policies, no girls are allowed in the sancturary, but somehow women come to mass anyway, and few complain.

The priests are solidly orthodox, and preach that boring, old-fashioned morality that nobody wants to hear. They will condemn sins such as contraception, abortion, and supporting pro-abort pols, and other things that drive all right-minded modern people from Church.
Evidentally, quite a few of the parishioners take this to heart, as evidenced by all the small children crawling over the pews.
And all that suffocating old-fashioned Catholic guilt keeps the lines to the confessional long every Saturday afternoon and weekday mornings and evenings. In fact, if you don't come early, you might not have time to have your confession heard.

People also go to the perpetual adoration in the adoration chapel (the old Church, recently restored to its outmoded, irrelevent pre-Vatican II glory), and take part in other outmoded, irrelevent Catholic activities.

So who knows why the church is not empty - other than that we're a bunch of backwards, benighted ultra-conservative dinosaurs, unlike the dissident, contracepting, liberal non-churchgoers, who as every secular news magazine will inform you, are the Future of the Church.[/quote]

There is something to this. I think the romance and adventure of orthodoxy is definitely something we need to impress upon people. I'm interested in the how though, my parish is full, literally overflowing, we decided as a community to start phasing out the new Mass. We have weekly NFP groups. Regular exposition of the Eucharistic Christ. A daily Rosary. And a shocking number of people who confess their sins daily (I'm one of them). But how do we save the Church in the rest of the world, outside of the confines of 1, or two, or a tthousand, good parishes?

Preach Catholic Truth yes, but that can't be all. In Europe the liberalization of the Church (in the American sense, clown-Masses, innovative liturgies) is not a factor, but still the Church is on the decline there. Christianity, Catholicism, is no secret thing that must be hunted for in Spain, or Austria, or Belgium, but it is labeled irrelvant "Baptize my children. Leave me alone." Why?

And what do we do about the millions of disaffected Catholics there and here? How do we not lose them, how do we turn their hearts back to their first love, back to Christ and His Church?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1408177' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:52 PM']Because going to church has become too secularized, and most churches attempt, and fail to draw people in by becoming more like the world instead of less like the world.

Let's learn from Coke (the church). It dominated the cola scene. Pepsi (the world) started winning taste tests. Coke got scared and tried to become more like Pepsi, making new Coke. It failed miserably because people didn't want more Pepsi, they wanted the Real Thing.

I say, let's bring back Catholicism Classic.[/quote]
This is brilliant.

[hyperdulia again]

I'm in love with the phrase "spirituality of ecclesiology." What is the shape of this in a healthy Catholic life?

[sismaria]

Why are our churches empty?
Is it not perhaps because there are not enough Catholics passionately and joyfully in love with God and in love with His bride the Church, reflecting the love of Jesus not only in their worship, but also by their very lives so that others are drawn to join us? We must love him reverently and knowingly at Mass and in prayer and then carry Him to others by living lives of virtue and selfless love. We must strive to be saints and there will be many more people at our side wanting to discover what is the secret of our joy, peace and strength.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1408325' date='Oct 23 2007, 11:23 PM']Why are our churches empty?
[b][font="Century Gothic"]Is it not perhaps because there are not enough Catholics passionately and joyfully in love with God and in love with His bride the Church, reflecting the love of Jesus not only in their worship, but also[i] by their very lives[/i] so that others are drawn to join us? [/font][/b] We must love him reverently and knowingly at Mass and in prayer and then carry Him to others by living lives of virtue and selfless love. We must strive to be saints and there will be many more people at our side wanting to discover what is the secret of our joy, peace and strength.[/quote]

DING DING she got it!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1408120' date='Oct 23 2007, 08:46 PM']What are the reasons for the decline of Christianity in the West? Particularly in the Catholic countries.[/quote]

- Modernism (which makes people see Church leadership more like a democracy and less like the visible presence of the divine hierarchy)

- false notions of ecumenism (i.e. people being afraid to proclaim that the Catholic Church teaches the fulness of truth and everything else is just a counterfeit)

- the contraceptive mentality (which leads to the culture of death and misguided ideas about sexuality)

- Socialism

The reason why so many churches are empty is because families are falling apart. Men aren't leading their households because that means putting the needs of their wives and children above their own. Women are too concerned with developing themselves to think about the spiritual formation about their children. They don't give their husbands the proper respect. People are forgetting that FAMILY stands for "Forget About Me, I Love You." Children these days don't get enough attention. That's not to say that their parents don't buy them things, or spend 'quality time' together... but no one pays attention to what's going on in their souls. Even well-meaning Catholic parents have the tendency to rely on inept youth ministers and catechists to educate their children.

The family is supposed to be the Domestic Church. This is where we learn how to live--how to be Catholic. We basically have a ridiculously large amount of Catholics who don't even know [i]how [/i]to be Catholic. I'd certainly lump myself into that category. I'm trying to live out my faith in an authentically Catholic way. I'm getting married, but at the same time, I didn't have Catholic parents to teach me how to be married. I have no idea how to live as a Catholic so I have to read as much as I can about Catholic tradition, make things up as I go along and hope for the best. I can only pray that my own children won't have to go through that.

In order to rebuild our Church, we have to start with family life. This is where vocations are nurtured and charity is taught.

Edited October 24, 2007 by photosynthesis

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1408122' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:49 PM']prob number one is people find the rules to be a drag. second is that it's boring. third is that all the apologetics and such, it's hard to know who's right.

if who was right is clearer, i think the first two reasons could be better overcome.

these seem to be the primary reasons, IMHO, from what i notice.[/quote]

I think its humanity's inability to deal with ambiguity and uncertainty that is the problem, not the honest discussion of theology. We won't know who is right until we are face to face with God and we are confronted with the fullness of truth.

[Norseman82]

Pardon me if I sound crass, but it's because people only care about two things: making money and getting laid. And nobody is scared of going to hell anymore (except maybe in Socrates' parish and others like it).

Edited October 24, 2007 by Norseman82