Universal Health Care

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 April 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1272130818' post='2099249']
We have universal health care. There is no one barred from seeking health care, from attempting to make deals with doctors or hospitals for treatment. I don't think anyone should be barred by law from receiving health care.
[/quote]



Health care is a service and, like other services (such as a car washes and shoe shines), competition and the free market should determine its cost.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Resurrexi

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 April 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1272133742' post='2099275']
1. You decide not to work.
2. You get medicaid.
3. You complain that you actually have to go get your prescriptions filled yourself.
4. You call an ambulance and go to the hospital so you can get your prescription filled. The hospital gives you a bus voucher because you can't be expected to pay even the couple of bucks it takes to ride the bus.
5. You go home, don't take your meds, but go buy some beer.
6. When you feel bad, you call 911.
[/quote]


you deciding not not work is not the only reason yoy get medicaid. great way to skew things. your statement is laughable. your describing a small population of medicaid people yet trying to generalize it into being the vast majority. either you really don't know about medicaid or your going overboard.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 April 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1272134252' post='2099277']


Health care is a service and, like other services (such as a car washes and shoe shines), competition and the free market should determine its cost.
[/quote]


health insurance is a service, not health care. competition and free market don't exactly work in health care because the costs of things are not viable in a free market for the entire population.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1272137554' post='2099310']
health insurance is a service, not health care. competition and free market don't exactly work in health care because the costs of things are not viable in a free market for the entire population.
[/quote]
That is most eminently debatable.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1272137554' post='2099310']
health insurance is a service, not health care. competition and free market don't exactly work in health care because the costs of things are not viable in a free market for the entire population.
[/quote]


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1272140627' post='2099340']
That is most eminently debatable.
[/quote]
By the way, there's an entire discipline of economics called health economics which specifically studies healthcare in the context of market activity. I can tell you that healthcare most certainly does respond to market forces. It's debatable whether it acts the same as, say, automobiles, but it certainly responds in ways that allow economists to analyze and predict trends, etc..

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1272140731' post='2099341']
By the way, there's an entire discipline of economics called health economics which specifically studies healthcare in the context of market activity. I can tell you that healthcare most certainly does respond to market forces. It's debatable whether it acts the same as, say, automobiles, but it certainly responds in ways that allow economists to analyze and predict trends, etc..
[/quote]

i'm not talking about trends or or stuff, i am talking about price. the price of health care does not work with supply and demand aspect of free market. the price is to high to work as such.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1272142849' post='2099362']
i'm not talking about trends or or stuff, i am talking about price. the price of health care does not work with supply and demand aspect of free market. the price is to high to work as such.
[/quote]
That is incorrect. If there were only 100 doctors, price of healthcare would be through the roof. If there were, for whatever strange reason, two doctors for every one American citizen, healthcare would be dirt cheap (and then unemployment would go up, etc., etc., etc., concluding in the long term with an equilibrium price and employment rate at the natural rate of unemployment). That is supply and demand. In healthcare it functions the same. It just so happens that healthcare is a very broad area with many services of varying prices.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1272143442' post='2099363']
That is incorrect. If there were only 100 doctors, price of healthcare would be through the roof. If there were, for whatever strange reason, two doctors for every one American citizen, healthcare would be dirt cheap (and then unemployment would go up, etc., etc., etc., concluding in the long term with an equilibrium price and employment rate at the natural rate of unemployment). That is supply and demand. In healthcare it functions the same. It just so happens that healthcare is a very broad area with many services of varying prices.
[/quote]


the problem is healthcare is not just about doctor's. if it was just doctor's fee's we were talking abou then i could agree with you. but were talking about mri's, x-ray's, ultrasounds and so on. even if you 100% privatized the medcial field, it would still not be cost managable for a person without insurance. i'll lay it simply.

the cost of just a tetnus shot, nothing else, no the nurse giving you the shot, not the cost of the alcohol, nothing else, is 100 dollars. that's what it costs a person without medical insurance to just pay for the drug. the costs of medical field is not condusive to a person's income unless said person is making well over 100,000 a year. most er visists for something as simple as an ear infection cost anywhere from 500 to 1000 dollars. an ambulance ride costs between 800 to 1000 dollars and that only covers the transport, not counting the milage. if emt's do anything in the ambualnce, the cost goes up.

the fact is, medical costs are not possible for people without insurance. that is unless you go broke paying for it or just don't pay your bill until it hits collections.

Edited April 25, 2010 by havok579257

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1272159166' post='2099465']
the problem is healthcare is not just about doctor's. if it was just doctor's fee's we were talking abou then i could agree with you. but were talking about mri's, x-ray's, ultrasounds and so on. even if you 100% privatized the medcial field, it would still not be cost managable for a person without insurance. i'll lay it simply.

the cost of just a tetnus shot, nothing else, no the nurse giving you the shot, not the cost of the alcohol, nothing else, is 100 dollars. that's what it costs a person without medical insurance to just pay for the drug. the costs of medical field is not condusive to a person's income unless said person is making well over 100,000 a year. most er visists for something as simple as an ear infection cost anywhere from 500 to 1000 dollars. an ambulance ride costs between 800 to 1000 dollars and that only covers the transport, not counting the milage. if emt's do anything in the ambualnce, the cost goes up.

the fact is, medical costs are not possible for people without insurance. that is unless you go broke paying for it or just don't pay your bill until it hits collections.
[/quote]
Why are we talking about high costs? Is that relevant to the fact that healthcare does indeed respond to market forces? You're changing the subject on me.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1272159539' post='2099471']
Why are we talking about high costs? Is that relevant to the fact that healthcare does indeed respond to market forces? You're changing the subject on me.
[/quote]


i think you misunderstood what i was saying. i said i agree'd that it does respond to market forces such as going up and down but that the decrease is not enough to take notice by anyone making less than over 100,000.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1272160252' post='2099483']
i think you misunderstood what i was saying. i said i agree'd that it does respond to market forces such as going up and down but that the decrease is not enough to take notice by anyone making less than over 100,000.
[/quote]
So buy private insurance. You can insure everything these days. Healthcare makes the most sense probably out of everything we insure.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1272137464' post='2099309']
you deciding not not work is not the only reason yoy get medicaid. great way to skew things. your statement is laughable. your describing a small population of medicaid people yet trying to generalize it into being the vast majority. either you really don't know about medicaid or your going overboard.
[/quote]
Yes, I'm aware some people get on medicaid because they are disabled somehow. I'm aware some people fall on hard times, as well. I still don't support state run social programs.

What's the percentage of people capable of work versus those incapable of work? You apparently know, since you've just condemned the idea that the majority of medicaid recipients are incapable of work.

How long have you been working in poor neighborhoods at a personal level actually seeing how people choose to live (as opposed to sitting in a desk listening to stories of people's lives as they prefer to tell)?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 April 2010 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1272164709' post='2099521']
Yes, I'm aware some people get on medicaid because they are disabled somehow. I'm aware some people fall on hard times, as well. I still don't support state run social programs.

What's the percentage of people capable of work versus those incapable of work? You apparently know, since you've just condemned the idea that the majority of medicaid recipients are incapable of work.

How long have you been working in poor neighborhoods at a personal level actually seeing how people choose to live (as opposed to sitting in a desk listening to stories of people's lives as they prefer to tell)?
[/quote]


people are on medicaid because they don't make enough money to be above the poverty line. children are a big part of mediciad, a big part. they are on medicaid because their parents don't make enough money to get them health insurance.

the majority of people on medicaid don't make enough money, so they get government insurance. children make up a big portion of medicaid population. yes, a large portion does take advantage of medicaid, but not the vast majority.

i don't sit at a desk and listen to people's stories. i work in the inner city. i personally see how people live. i am an emt on an ambulance in a major inner city. i see exactly how the inner city works. i see exactly the people you are talking about. i also see the people i am talking about. i see the mother with 4 children who works her butt off and can't afford heat for her house. who i go to pick up in the winter and is half frozen because she can't afford heat. i see the people who are in a perpetual rut. who work a basic blue collar job but can never get their head above water. who live pay check to pay check. i see hundreads of pts who despretly need medical care but refuse to get any because they have no insuarance and can not afford medical attention. i see the people who die at a young age because they could not afford medical care for something so simple as high blood pressure. i see the filth some children and adults are forced to live in because they can't get by. next time, instead of jumping to conclusions, how about actually ask me where my experience comes from. although why do that when you can just assume things and make posts like these.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1272162179' post='2099498']
So buy private insurance. You can insure everything these days. Healthcare makes the most sense probably out of everything we insure.
[/quote]


except buying private insurance right now is not that easy. its not cheap. the insurance company can drop you if you incure to much expenses(even if its not your fault) and most will refuse you if you have pre-existing conditions. its not as easy as buying private insurance.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1272167466' post='2099545']
except buying private insurance right now is not that easy. its not cheap. the insurance company can drop you if you incure to much expenses(even if its not your fault) and most will refuse you if you have pre-existing conditions. its not as easy as buying private insurance.
[/quote]
Now *that* is something that also responds (extremely well) to market conditions. Get the government out of the insurance business and watch the prices drop like crazy. At the end of the day, insurance companies, like any other companies, want more customers. The market equilibrium would make health insurance far better and more efficient than it is today.