Judaism

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1407904' date='Oct 23 2007, 02:25 PM']As I explained before, quotes end up fabricated around the internet in malicious ways and accidental ways, I just want a citation so I could look at it in its original context or in its original language to know that it is accurate. It's usually a bad sign for the authenticity (or at least accuracy of the wording) of a quote when you google search it and the only things you come up with are non-cited web pages with a particular agenda. I question any quote that turns up such results on google, not necessarily thinking that anyone maliciously made it up, but things get misworded in translations, misquoted on forums/blogs/web pages, mistyped, misattributed (sometimes quotes are attributed to someone who had nothing to do with saying them because a random amateur website/blog/forum just happened to put a name of some historical figure close to a quote).

But then I proceeded to discuss the meaning anyway, just because I presume there are things like this in Christian history and so my general explanation was meant to cover any such things in Christian history.

Before discussing the quote in specifics, I would expect to have access to it in its original context and be able to look it up in its original language to make sure none of these things happen; they do, indeed, happen all the time.[/quote]

Sweetie I have no quarrel with you about looking for citations of those quotes. I can't find any either. I just think it's unlikely they are anything other than what they claim to be.

[Aloysius]

It's entirely likely, and I've seen it before, to find anti-semetic quotes from saints which turn out to have been from some random anti-semetic traditionalist who read something from that saint which seemed to confirm their anti-semetic ideas and then phrased it back in their own words, and said "according to saint such and such:" or something... all it takes is for something like that to get repeated enough, and it'll seem true.

hey, anti-semitism is such a charged up word anyway... people can get labeled it for being against the nation-state of Israel; people can get labelled it for saying Jews should convert to Christianity; I have no doubt in my mind that many things which were said freely and without anti-semetic sentiment in times past would be looked at as if they were anti-semetic through the modern lens.

making general statements about the eschatological implications of the continuous presence of a "jewish people" and a "jewish religion" after the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, even when that might include stuff like discussing "the Jews" as the race which killed Christ or the religion that rejected Christ or the people who are cursed by having no homeland (hey, Orthodox Rabbis against Zionism preach that they were banished from palestine and are not permitted to have a homeland until the Messiah comes, carrying on the traditional orthodox jewish position for the past couple millenia) does not necessarily make for anti-semitism. Some of it might not be correct to say, but it doesn't always necessarily amount to a hatred of Jewish people, even though it would be spun that way when read through the modern lens.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405457' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:31 PM']I guess that regarding the Holy Trinity we'd have to start with the Possibility of a Being existing as three different persons. How can one being, be three co-equal, co-eternal persons and remain one being? The Tanakh (Old Testament) clearly teaches that our God is one.[/quote]

What is the definition of a person? Does a person need to be exclusively tied to one being?

Let's look at ourselves, each being one person. We all have physical bodies and spiritual souls, essentially two distinct manifestations of one person, but we never doubt that we are each only one being. In a similar vein, why couldn't God manifest himself through three persons, while remaining one being?

Another example is marriage, in which two people are joined sacramentally into one flesh. While the husband and wife retain their individuality, they are also mysteriously joined forever: two persons in one union. So, there is only one marriage, but it is manifested through two persons, plus any children God provides.

Obviously, Christianity agrees that there is only one God. My question is, what is it about personhood that prevents the one God from being three persons?

Though they aren't absolute proof (for whatever reason, the Trinity wasn't fully revealed until Christ's arrival), it's also worth considering the many allusions to the Trinity in the Old Testament. My favorite is found in each of the first three verses: Gen 1:1-3.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405457' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:31 PM']Why would God institute the Law only to abrogate it? What about the picture of God in the Tanakh makes one think He would "fulfill the Law" in His person.[/quote]

[url="http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Levitical%20Sacrifices%20and%20Offerings%20of%20the%20Old%20Covenant.htm"]Here's[/url] a pretty good chart of the Levitical sacrificies and offerings with their Christian prophetic significance. It's the last link on the first page of results if you search for "old testament prophecy" in the Catholic Defense Directory. I'm sure more detailed explanations of each of those can be found, but that at least begins to illustrate how every Old Testament sacrifice is fulfilled in Christ.

Edited October 23, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1407912' date='Oct 23 2007, 03:47 PM']It's entirely likely, and I've seen it before, to find anti-semetic quotes from saints which turn out to have been from some random anti-semetic traditionalist...[/quote]

That's possible, but most likely, the quotes provided in this thread are legit. If they aren't, there are others that could be provided. To me, this is just one of many examples that show us saints were sinners too. Except for Mary, every one of them had flaws, which happens to be part of the reason we ask them to pray for us.