Judaism

[mortify]

Hyper,

What verses do you believe contradict the reality of the Trinity?

Personally I think it's more reasonable to consider what the Trinity does for our spiritual life with God than to try to understand it logically. Because we believe God is One in Three Persons we can commune with Him in ways a solely transcendent deity in heaven couldn't.

[Justin86]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405481' date='Oct 20 2007, 03:51 AM']The TS comment wasn't to you. It was a reference to the proliferation of threads relating to homosexuality. I believe I am within the Church's guidelines.

The priesthood isn't lost people with the last name cohen and others have preserved the priestly lineage. They are also forbidden to marry converts (unless they converted before three) and mamzers (Jews who descend in any traceable line from illicit sex).[/quote]
So I guess that makes me a mamzer then? I'm dead serious about this. A couple generations ago I had a Jewish ancestor through illicit sex. Since you like to adopt people, could you take me under your wing and call me "my little mamzer"?

Edited October 20, 2007 by Justin86

[hyperdulia again]

Do you want me to adopt you Justin? I'm only three years older than you, so people would talk, but I would gladly have three kids, three dogs, 1 cat, (we're debating some hamsters), one exsomething, and a cute little mamzer.

Can you fix things?
The lock on the bathroom door does not work.
Deddy has yet to get my car to run when it's raining.
The bath tub and one of the kitchen sinks doesn't drain properly.
My son throws things into the toilet and flushes them (tonight his lion, my fav lipstick).
It's getting cold so I'm going to have to move Mary (the baby) out of that death trap nursery into my room. You can have it if you don't mind pink and not having a bedroom door--Deddy took it to make Ganny a table.

There's a very nice lady Miss Ola Mae who works for my parents (we live in a little house in Mamma and Deddy's backyard) that will bake you cookies and fry you chicken (most Yankees in my experience don't like chicken deep fried in veggie oil).

Oh but I guess you did say "under my wing" not into my home. Either way. I will. You decide.

Edited October 20, 2007 by hyperdulia again

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='mortify' post='1405858' date='Oct 19 2007, 10:40 PM']Hyper,

What verses do you believe contradict the reality of the Trinity?

Personally I think it's more reasonable to consider what the Trinity does for our spiritual life with God than to try to understand it logically. Because we believe God is One in Three Persons we can commune with Him in ways a solely transcendent deity in heaven couldn't.[/quote]

There are no particular verses to point to. The OT teaches (like the NT and the Church) that God is one.

The problem is I guess an intellectual one I've managed to read myself into lately about how that oneness can express itself through a community of persons in anything other than a poetic sense.

Edited October 20, 2007 by hyperdulia again

[hyperdulia again]

I will give more detailed responses to other posts in five minutes, or tomorrow. Not sure. I'm kinda ADD.

[Justin86]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405924' date='Oct 20 2007, 03:05 PM']Do you want me to adopt you Justin? I'm only three years older than you, so people would talk, but I would gladly have three kids, three dogs, 1 cat, (we're debating some hamsters), one exsomething, and a cute little mamzer.

Can you fix things?
The lock on the bathroom door does not work.
Deddy has yet to get my car to run when it's raining.
The bath tub and one of the kitchen sinks doesn't drain properly.
My son throws things into the toilet and flushes them (tonight his lion, my fav lipstick).
It's getting cold so I'm going to have to move Mary (the baby) out of that death trap nursery into my room. You can have it if you don't mind pink and not having a bedroom door--Deddy took it to make Ganny a table.

There's a very nice lady Miss Ola Mae who works for my parents (we live in a little house in Mamma and Deddy's backyard) that will bake you cookies and fry you chicken (most Yankees in my experience don't like chicken deep fried in veggie oil).

Oh but I guess you did say "under my wing" not into my home. Either way. I will. You decide.[/quote]
Under your wing would be fine. As long as I get to be your little mamzer.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1405537' date='Oct 19 2007, 09:27 PM']I went all through Catholic school...elementary, high and college. I can honestly tell you I had more Jewish studies than I did Catholic. Other than the year of preparing for a Sacrament (as in Penance and First Holy Communion, and later Confirmation) it was pretty much focused on our Judaic roots. We had an annual Seder, visits to various temples (and the Holocaust museums), as well as many inter-faith sharing projects, workshops and the like.[/quote]

I don't know any Catholics who became fluent in Biblical Hebrew, explored the relationship between the Mishnah, the Gemara and our own Tradition, and were made familiar with all the Jewish festivals as a standard part of their education. You were unusually lucky to be able to have that. The most I ever got was a visit to a Reform synagogue and a Christianised seder when I was nineteen, where there were no Jews present and the pronunciation of the Hebrew was so badly mangled that I couldn't understand a word. As for the study of Hebrew, I had to enrol myself in classes at a shul. None of the Catholic high schools in my area offered any sort of Jewish education beyond one module in the A-Level Religious Studies course. Unfortunately, I think this experience is more common than the sort of Jewish education that you had.

[quote]As for there not being a tension or conflict between the two faiths, I beg to differ. We believe in Jesus the Christ, who was and is the Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies of our Jewish forebearers. The Jews fully reject this core and most important belief.[/quote]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I know that the Jews don't accept Jesus as the moshiach. What I was trying to say is that there is no conflict between the faith of the Old Testament and the faith of the New. One is rooted in the other.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Double post.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1405493' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:18 PM']Remember the dream of St. Augustine? (Paraphrasing...I'm sure somebody will jump on this with the exact quote....but here it is for now...)

He was walking upon the beach and came across a little boy filling a bucket with sand. He stopped and asked the child what he was doing. The child told him he was going to put ALL of the sand from all of the beaches into his bucket, and clear the shores. St. Augustine laughed and told him he would never succeed. It would take too long. The little boy looked at him and said, "I will complete this task before you understand the true nature of God."

Please do not let your intellect confuse you and carry you away. We call ourselves the Body of Christ because we are a body. Bring your heart back...

Our Faith is a Faith that has unfolded through the centuries, touching the hearts and souls of the powerful and lowly alike. We have glorious saints, magnificient artwork, spectacular music and a culture that transcends all ethnic and racial groupings. We have poetic litanies, fabulous writings and prayers that stretch our minds and hearts, and customs to beautiful to endure. We have Mystics, Doctors of the Church, Virgins, Confessors, Religious and Lay. We have Hermits, Consecrated Virgins, Priests, Deacons, Brothers, Nuns and Monks. We birthed the Franciscans, Dominicans, Marianists, Carmelites, Jesuits, Carthusians, Benedictines and too many thousand more to list. We believe that as bad as Friday is, Sunday is right around the corner, and the Resurrection lives and breathes life into everything we touch....

We can walk into St. Peter's and know we are truly Home and the beauty that surrounds us there is a mere and failed attempt at revealing the true beauty of the Redeemer in all of His majesty glory, whom has touched us with His merciful Hand. And when things seem lost and unbearable and without hope, we can place ourselves within the Mantle of Our Lady and know She will bring us to Her Son, with loving hands and a comforting peace.

When nobody else would touch or care for PWA, we did (thank you, Mother Teresa). When the lepers were untouchable and shunned, we were there. When the children were abandoned and forgotten, we took them in. We created an educational system in the United States that set the standard for all other educational systems in this country. We refused to be discriminated against, and we took care of ourselves, and everybody else at the same time. The Sisters took the proceeds from the expensive schools and built schools for the poor. We educated the Poor, Women, Blacks, Indians, the Irish, Italians and Mexicans. We brought opportunity and dignity to the impoverished, and we continue to do that today. We built hospitals the world over and again, set the standard for health care. Without thought of religion, race or financial status. We were not content to sit quietly and take care of our own...not ever. We spoke, and continue to speak, for those without a voice...be it an unborn child nestled in his mother's womb or a comatose woman with a murderous husband.

From the moment of that first Pentecost, we have not contained our joy, our knowledge or the grace of the Sacraments. We have welcomed, invited and embraced. We have endured our human condition and have sat with steadfast hearts many Dark Nights of the Soul. We have been redeemed through the grace of God, and we are blessed beyond all understanding. The enemy shakes at the Name of Jesus Christ, he recoils at the sight of Holy Water, he runs from the Sacraments. We stand upon the blood of the martyrs and their lives were not in vain.

We are sons and daughters of the King, and we will have life everlasting.[/quote]


This is a beautiful post.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1405736' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:34 PM']The funny thing is, the entirety of the Old Testament is a prophecy of Christ. All of it foreshadows Christ in some manner or another. I can give you some of the highlights, but the best way to understand it all is to do a thorough Catholic Bible study of Paul's epistles. He was a Pharisee who studied under the Jewish scribe Gamaleal, so he has a very estute way of demonstrating Christ's life as a fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. I'll follow up in some later posts after I collect some scripture quotes.[/quote]

What Bible study do you suggest?

[abercius24]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1406318' date='Oct 21 2007, 12:09 AM']What Bible study do you suggest?[/quote]

Any by Scott Hahn will get you a healthy dose of Hebrew context. His books on tape for the Book of Romans is excellent on this matter.

Paul states in Collossians 2.16-17:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of a festival day or of the new moon or of the sabbaths, Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ."

Here he demonstrates the Christian perspective on the Old Covenant. It is a shadow, a precursor anticipation of the reality in which we would participate in Christ.

"Why have the Gentiles raged, and the people devised vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes met together, against the Lord, and against [b]his Christ[/b]. Let us break their bonds asunder: and let us cast away their yoke from us. He that dwelleth in heaven shall laugh at them: and the Lord shall deride them. Then shall he speak to them in his anger, and trouble them in his rage. But [b]I am appointed king by him over Sion, his holy mountain, preaching his commandment[/b]. The Lord hath said to me: [b]Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.[/b] Ask of me, and [b]I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance[/b], and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt rule them with a [b]rod of iron[/b], and shalt break them in pieces like a potter's vessel. And now, O ye kings, understand: receive instruction, you that judge the earth. Serve ye the Lord with fear: and rejoice unto him with trembling. Embrace discipline, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and you perish from the just way." (Psalm 2:1-12, my emphasis added)

This is a significant prophecy of the Messiah. The Messiah is known as the Annointed One, the Christ. The Jews recognize that his rule is represented by the Kingdom of Zion (Sion). In this Messianic prophecy, we see some very important elements that define the Messiah. First, the Lord recognizes the Christ as His begotten Son. Second, we see that he will be a king of the House of David, represented by the Rod of Iron. Third, He shall be given rule not only over the Hebrews, but also the Gentiles -- a Universal Dominion.

Now understand that these words were first spoken by King David himself. Though his son, Solomon, united many of the Gentiles nations under his kingdom, David did not do this himself, nor could it truly be understood as a Universal Dominion. As well, David is using the term "Son" metaphorically. The only true Son of God was Adam by his time. So we can see that David's prophetic words apply to him in an imperfect manner that has yet to be perfectly fulfilled by the Messiah he represents as a precursor, as a shadow.

Jesus Christ fulfills this prophecy as the Annointed One. He is a descendant of David from both Mary and Joseph (through Mary by blood and through Joseph by adoption). He claimed Kingship over the Jews and the Gentiles -- which He died for -- and established the Catholic Church as that Kingdom ("Catholic" is greek for Universal). He appointed His apostles as ministers of the court, particularly Peter as the Prime Minister (succeeding those such as Eliakim). He is also a True Son of God being that God Himself is His Father. He is even moreso a Son of God than Adam was.

"Therefore my heart hath been glad, and my tongue hath rejoiced: moreover, [b]my flesh also shall rest in hope[/b]. Because thou [b]wilt not leave my soul in hell[/b]; nor [b]wilt thou give thy holy one to see corruption[/b]. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life, thou shalt fill me with joy with thy countenance: at thy right hand are delights even to the end." (Psalm 15:9-10, my emphasis added)

Again David speaks these words metaphorically, but they imperfectly apply to him. David certainly did die and his body has decayed. The Messiah, though, will visit hell, but will not be adandoned there. Furthermore his body will not be left to decay on the earth. This prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus Christ through His Resurrection and Ascension into heaven. After His death, Christ visited "Hell" (Sheol, the Hell of the Waiting, Luke 16-19-31, 1 Peter 3:18-19). There He released the souls of the righteous who awaited the Redemption He would bring, which subsequently allowed them to enter the Gates of Heaven. On the third day He rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven where His body is glorified and knows no decay.

Both the above passages are Messianic prophecies from Jewish Scripture, which we share. As you can see, the Messiah would be an amazing man. I'll follow up later with some scriptures that further demonstrate Christ's divinity.

Edited October 21, 2007 by abercius24

[hyperdulia again]

Thank you abercius!

Anyone have any thoughts about these quotes. They are from aish.com a Jewish website.

From John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of Constantinople, we get this:

"Jews are the most worthless of men - they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious - they are perfidious murderers of Christians, they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness ... The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing god there is no expiation, no indulgence, no pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance. The Jews must live in servitude forever. It is incumbent on all Christians to hate the Jews."

From Gregory of Nyssa, we get more of the same:

"Slayers of the lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of god, haters of god, men who show contempt for the law, foes of grace, enemies of the father's faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of righteousness."

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1406770' date='Oct 21 2007, 06:22 PM']Thank you abercius!

Anyone have any thoughts about these quotes. They are from aish.com a Jewish website.

From John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of Constantinople, we get this:

"Jews are the most worthless of men - they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious - they are perfidious murderers of Christians, they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness ... The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing god there is no expiation, no indulgence, no pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance. The Jews must live in servitude forever. It is incumbent on all Christians to hate the Jews."

From Gregory of Nyssa, we get more of the same:

"Slayers of the lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of god, haters of god, men who show contempt for the law, foes of grace, enemies of the father's faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of righteousness."[/quote]
Yes, here are my thoughts: these views do not represent the Church today. Pope John Paul II made great efforts to improve relations between the Church and the Jewish community, and publicly repented of the Church's past antisemitism.

[Aloysius]

Hyper, I searched around for a citation of these quotes, and could not find one. It would be necessary to first verify that this is exactly what they said.

According to Nostra Aetate, we cannot blame the Jews alive today, nor even them as a race, for the death of Our Lord. Seems logical; of course, we might also say that you could not blame the Jews alive at the time of Christ for the death of the prophets... yet Christ addressed the Jews as a people in that way. There is a real sense in which all the actions of Israel are seen, from the Divine Eye, as one act of His chosen people from the beginning. I am reminded of the reproaches said on Good Friday "my people what have I done to you, how have I offended you, answer me!"... speaking to the Jewish people, to Israel itself, as Israel itself was rejecting Him.

In this context we ought to understand the historical usage of the accusation against Jews for deicide... it was really an accusation against Old Israel, it was really an accusation that the Chosen People had rejected their Messiah, and that is true of the Jewish religion, rabbinical judaism; it is a religion predicated upon rejecting Christ, it is a religion attempting to keep alive a religion which ought no longer to exist; a clear rejection of what God became flesh to accomplish; and in that sense, we ought to understand the reason why Christians through the centuries have thought of "the Jews" as a "cursed race" of some sort, cursed by the act of deicide. No, the Jews as a people are not culpable, nor the Jews alive today; but as a religion, rabbinical judaism is founded on the rejection of Christ; the act of deicide was the act in which Israel as a whole, as the Chosen People, refused their messiah.

Rabbinical Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament; Catholicism is the continuation of that religion. Rabbinical Judaism is the stark refusal to continue in the covenant as it unfolded in the First Century.

Again, I would first like a citation for those quotes before going into specifics about them. All I could find them on were unscholarly sites which did not cite them, for all we know it could all be based on mistranslation, misattribution, or lies. If it's not, because I know throughout history there are some who would have words such as that for the Jews, then what I have said is the context in which we should understand why such a thing would be said by a Christian.

[hyperdulia again]

I here this continual assertion that Rabbinical Judaism, is not Biblical Judaism, but I'm not sure if I believe it. The claim of a revealed oral tradition (a Sacred Tradition if you will) seems compelling to me. As for the crimes of individuals being visitable on all the Jewish people, from God's eye or anyone else's, this simply cannot be true.

I will go back to Aish to see if the quotes offer citations, but I can think of a half-dozen times I've heard saints and Popes say things like this. I think this is the worst struggle I've ever had with the Church.