Judaism

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1405302' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:42 AM']I understand the pull, I have experienced it myself. Check out this site: [url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/[/url][/quote]

Laudate sent this and another site to me. They are wonderful.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405443' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:13 PM']"Herod's Temple wasn't God's Temple"

The temple Yeshua worshipped at? The temple he drove the moneychangers from? Where does the Bible say this? If it's from Tradition who said it, when? [/quote]
Herod was a puppet of the Romans, and neither of the David's line nor Judah Maccabee's line (the latter having established an independent kingdom as set out in the books of Maccabees).

God's Shekinah Glory departed Solomon's Temple as described in Ezekiel, and never returned. It was not present in Herod's Temple, which indicates of course that God does things in His timing, not man's.

Finally, Herod's Temple was destroyed in AD 70, which closed the book on Old Covenant ritual and worship. Do you really need flaming letters in the sky that say, "The sacrifices of the Old Covenant are no more?"

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405457' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:31 PM']Why would God institute the Law only to abrogate it? What about the picture of God in the Tanakh makes one think He would "fulfill the Law" in His person.[/quote]
He didn't abrogate it; He fulfilled it.

[i]Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.[/i]

Mt. 5:17

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1405466' date='Oct 19 2007, 01:37 PM']Herod was a puppet of the Romans, and neither of the David's line nor Judah Maccabee's line (the latter having established an independent kingdom as set out in the books of Maccabees).

God's Shekinah Glory departed Solomon's Temple as described in Ezekiel, and never returned. It was not present in Herod's Temple, which indicates of course that God does things in His timing, not man's.

Finally, Herod's Temple was destroyed in AD 70, which closed the book on Old Covenant ritual and worship. Do you really need flaming letters in the sky that say, "The sacrifices of the Old Covenant are no more?"[/quote]


It really would be nice. We're talking about some of the most serious things imaginable. Just to be very clear about this, I am a doubting, but believing and loyal Catholic. No need to be snitty.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 10:44 PM']Explain some things to me:

The bloody history of Christian antisemitism (not the shoah, which was a crime of the clearly pagan Nazis).[/quote]

Christians aren't all bad to Jews: like the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resettlement_of_the_Jews_in_England"]Jewish Resettlement in England[/url]. There are some good sides to how Christians have treated different groups of humanity and suchlike. It was Christian societies that first banned slavery..

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405457' date='Oct 19 2007, 07:31 PM']the Trinity is a logical impossibility and we are really talking about three gods. It is clearly rejected in the Tanakh. Even if it isn't rejected "specifically" in the Tanakh, the burden of proof belongs to the religion that is making the completionist claim.[/quote]

Not neccessarily. I did try a mathematical look at the trinity in another post, though i'm sure you can look at other rescources.

Edited October 19, 2007 by RandomProddy

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1405280' date='Oct 19 2007, 07:32 AM']My statements do not change based on your chosen lifestyle (living as a transexual). I don't believe sexual behavior should define a person's core being. I would do you injustice to approach your dignity as a human being from that perspective. We all have sins that we have to deal with. That does not change who God is and what He expects from us.
I've heard many planning for such an event. They still have the problem of the lost preisthood, though, which is passed down by family inheritance. Some have stated they can trace some living individuals back with proper lineage, but I honestly don't think they have the means to do so.[/quote]

The TS comment wasn't to you. It was a reference to the proliferation of threads relating to homosexuality. I believe I am within the Church's guidelines.

The priesthood isn't lost people with the last name cohen and others have preserved the priestly lineage. They are also forbidden to marry converts (unless they converted before three) and mamzers (Jews who descend in any traceable line from illicit sex).

[quote name='abercius24' post='1405280' date='Oct 19 2007, 07:32 AM']We are of the same faith and of the same Church as the Jews -- the Faith of the Patriarchs. We are just at different places in the Church's development. We both share the faith of Adam and Eve, of Noah and Shem, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses and King David, and that of all the prophets. The Church has developed as God has offered revelation to His people: from a family, to a nation of tribes, to an earthly kingdom, and now to a Heavenly Kingdom. Jesus Christ holds the Rod of David. He IS the living King of the Jews, and now also of the Gentiles. He has united all nations under the Davidic Kingdom as Solomon once attempted (and failed) to do. All these things have been prophecied from the beginning. The Jews themselves recognize that their faith is incomplete given the fact that they are still waiting for the Messiah and the fulfillment of messianic prophecy. We see that those prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ and we have taken the next step. We are the Jewish Church now expanded to include the Gentiles as God has promised. [b]The Catholic Church is the completion of Messianic prophecy.[/b][/quote]

Where in the Tanakh are these prophecies. I know Isaiah (Suffering servant is one of the thing that led to my great grandmother's conversion to Lutheranism, from Reform Judaism). What are the others?

Edited October 19, 2007 by hyperdulia again

[hyperdulia again]

Proddy I'm not smart enough to understand that post on Trigod.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405474' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:43 PM']It really would be nice. We're talking about some of the most serious things imaginable. Just to be very clear about this, I am a doubting, but believing and loyal Catholic. No need to be snitty.[/quote]
I didn't intend to be "snitty." Here's the point: the destruction of Herod's Temple was a calamity of unimaginable proportions for Israel [i]unless[/i] there was an alternative.

For any of us, if we don't want to believe, we won't. We can simply keep saying, "but... but... but..."

The Rabbinic Judaism of today is not the Judaism of biblical Israel. Is that an accident? Or did God make a mistake? Or is there another explanation?

[Guest Perpetualove]

Remember the dream of St. Augustine? (Paraphrasing...I'm sure somebody will jump on this with the exact quote....but here it is for now...)

He was walking upon the beach and came across a little boy filling a bucket with sand. He stopped and asked the child what he was doing. The child told him he was going to put ALL of the sand from all of the beaches into his bucket, and clear the shores. St. Augustine laughed and told him he would never succeed. It would take too long. The little boy looked at him and said, "I will complete this task before you understand the true nature of God."

Please do not let your intellect confuse you and carry you away. We call ourselves the Body of Christ because we are a body. Bring your heart back...

Our Faith is a Faith that has unfolded through the centuries, touching the hearts and souls of the powerful and lowly alike. We have glorious saints, magnificient artwork, spectacular music and a culture that transcends all ethnic and racial groupings. We have poetic litanies, fabulous writings and prayers that stretch our minds and hearts, and customs to beautiful to endure. We have Mystics, Doctors of the Church, Virgins, Confessors, Religious and Lay. We have Hermits, Consecrated Virgins, Priests, Deacons, Brothers, Nuns and Monks. We birthed the Franciscans, Dominicans, Marianists, Carmelites, Jesuits, Carthusians, Benedictines and too many thousand more to list. We believe that as bad as Friday is, Sunday is right around the corner, and the Resurrection lives and breathes life into everything we touch....

We can walk into St. Peter's and know we are truly Home and the beauty that surrounds us there is a mere and failed attempt at revealing the true beauty of the Redeemer in all of His majesty glory, whom has touched us with His merciful Hand. And when things seem lost and unbearable and without hope, we can place ourselves within the Mantle of Our Lady and know She will bring us to Her Son, with loving hands and a comforting peace.

When nobody else would touch or care for PWA, we did (thank you, Mother Teresa). When the lepers were untouchable and shunned, we were there. When the children were abandoned and forgotten, we took them in. We created an educational system in the United States that set the standard for all other educational systems in this country. We refused to be discriminated against, and we took care of ourselves, and everybody else at the same time. The Sisters took the proceeds from the expensive schools and built schools for the poor. We educated the Poor, Women, Blacks, Indians, the Irish, Italians and Mexicans. We brought opportunity and dignity to the impoverished, and we continue to do that today. We built hospitals the world over and again, set the standard for health care. Without thought of religion, race or financial status. We were not content to sit quietly and take care of our own...not ever. We spoke, and continue to speak, for those without a voice...be it an unborn child nestled in his mother's womb or a comatose woman with a murderous husband.

From the moment of that first Pentecost, we have not contained our joy, our knowledge or the grace of the Sacraments. We have welcomed, invited and embraced. We have endured our human condition and have sat with steadfast hearts many Dark Nights of the Soul. We have been redeemed through the grace of God, and we are blessed beyond all understanding. The enemy shakes at the Name of Jesus Christ, he recoils at the sight of Holy Water, he runs from the Sacraments. We stand upon the blood of the martyrs and their lives were not in vain.

We are sons and daughters of the King, and we will have life everlasting.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Our Jewish heritage is often grossly underappreciated by Catholics. I was on a retreat over the summer and I had the opportunity to hear a Jewish convert to Catholicism talking about the Eucharist from a Jewish perspective. This man was formerly a regular congregant at an Orthodox shul. All practising Catholics know that the Last Supper was connected to the first ever Passover, but few of us could describe the connections in such intimate detail. (For instance, it is no coincidence that Jesus said, "I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until I taste it again in the Father's kingdom" over the cup of blessing, the third cup drunk at the seder, whereas, "This is my blood..." was spoken over the fourth.) There are so many parallels and connections and they all have meaning. Exploring them is a good way to become familiar with the Jewish foundation of Catholicism.

Catholicism should not be understood as a strong and aggressive breed of tree that choked out the existing foliage of the area. Unfortunately, a few Catholics do understand their faith in this way - implicitly if not explicitly. Our roots aren't merely in Judaism. Judaism [i]is[/i] our roots. We can't disparage what has nourished us.

Unfortunately, the bloody anti-Semitism in the Church's history shows that a significant number of people have gone beyond mere disparagment and committed terrible crimes against Jews. They were Catholics. We can't put the "Catholic" in quotation marks, thus implying that they weren't [i]real[/i] Catholics, because that would mean that a real Catholic is a perfect person who would never dream of being prejudiced against anyone. That isn't true. If the members of Phatmass were transported back in time to become citizens of Nazi Germany, the vast majority of us would quite happily play the role of Innocent Bystander while Jewish neighbours get hauled off to their deaths. That is what a majority of Catholics did, and their very silence was collusion. It's tempting to believe that we would all be like Maximilian Kolbe, Titus Brandsma, Oskar Schindler, Sister Alice of the Resurrection, or any of the other Catholics who risked their lives to rescue Jews. It's tempting to believe that they are shining examples of the typical Catholic - but the fact remains that they were in a minority. They were examples of what Catholics should be, not what Catholics necessarily are, and it is a shame on their memory and on the Jews they helped to point at them and say, "See, there were plenty of good Catholics out there really."

We can't fully appreciate our Jewish heritage and our own faith until we accept that Catholicism has not been a beacon of justice for the Jewish people over the two millennia of its existence. That is changing now, largely thanks to the wonderful and sensitive work of Pope John Paul the Great. (I am horribly afraid that the old anti-Semitism will be replaced in the popular imagination by Islamophobia, which is dressed up to sound just as reasonable as anti-Semitism once did, but that's another issue.) For me, returning to the Jewish roots of my faith does not mean airbrushing out the nasty parts of our historical relationship with the Jewish people, but in confronting it head-on.

Something that once posed a problem for me was the number of Catholics who used to justify anti-Jewish atrocities with the mantra, "The Jews killed Christ." Er, no, we all killed Christ. By denying their own culpability in Jesus' death, these Christians denied their very human need for redemption - and, ironically enough, became inflated with the exact same pride and self-importance that characterised so many of the Pharisees. Now I see that this happened because they only wanted a token saviour, an inert metal figure on a wooden cross, to be venerated on Good Friday but not to be brought to life by a genuine realisation of their own need for Him. So in one sense, theirs was a very weak Catholicism: they lacked the self-knowledge that the faith demands.

Regarding the Trinity and Jesus' divinity, these are perfectly in harmony with Judaism - especially when you read the opening of John's Gospel. [i]The word became flesh and dwelt amongst us[/i]. That sentence is incredibly powerful. Jewish culture is and always has been a culture with a huge amount of respect and reverence for the written word, as anyone who has seen the way the Torah is honoured in a synagogue will know. This isn't just a manuscript. This is life. But it's very mysterious life. The trouble with language is that it also veils what it seeks to convey. A few years ago I wrote a description of how it feels to step off the plane in Saudi Arabia and gave it to a former expatriate to read. She was excited. "Oh," she said, "you've brought it all back to me." But I hadn't. I hadn't been able to physically transport her to Dhahran to experience that for herself. Good writing can take you within a hairsbreadth of a place or person, but they're still not quite there. They're still Other.

Then the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. This fulfilment can only be appreciated if we realise how central God's Word really is in Judaism. This takes more than Bible study. Exploring the original languages of the Bible, growing familiar with the traditional Latin of our own liturgy, learning to see how the many feasts and festivals of Judaism shaped our own liturgical calendar. Pentecost coincides with a major Jewish feast, Shavuot. My knowledge of what Pentecost means for us as Christians increased when I learned about the celebration of Shavuot, which the disciples would most certainly have been observing themselves. It is a harvest festival that marks the time the Torah was received at Sinai. Is it any coincidence that it also marks the time of the Holy Spirit's descent, blessing the disciples with unparalleled gifts of speech and language?

In short: there is nothing wrong with exploring Judaism. I wish that every Catholic Sunday School or children's liturgy group had mandatory classes in Jewish faith and custom. We are nothing without it. There is no logical tension or conflict between the two faiths.

[Guest Perpetualove]

I went all through Catholic school...elementary, high and college. I can honestly tell you I had more Jewish studies than I did Catholic. Other than the year of preparing for a Sacrament (as in Penance and First Holy Communion, and later Confirmation) it was pretty much focused on our Judaic roots. We had an annual Seder, visits to various temples (and the Holocaust museums), as well as many inter-faith sharing projects, workshops and the like.

As for there not being a tension or conflict between the two faiths, I beg to differ. We believe in Jesus the Christ, who was and is the Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies of our Jewish forebearers. The Jews fully reject this core and most important belief.

[PapaHilarious]

Many wonderful, heartfelt posts in this thread. I don't know that there's much I can add, but I'd like to address a few main points that you've brought up.

[b]#1. Jesus just a prophet? Is there a Trinity?[/b] One of the most foundational passages that addresses this is John 17:1-10. Note verse 5, in particular.

[quote][1] When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
[2] [u]since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.[/u]
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
[4] I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
[5] [u]and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory [b]which I had with thee before the world was made[/b].[/u]
[6] "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.
[7] Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
[8] for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[9] I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
[10] all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. [u]Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.[/u][/quote]

Certainly no prophet can give eternal life (v. 2) nor has been with God before the creation of the world (v. 5). And who existed before man and the world but God Himself? So from Divine Revelation, from the very words of Christ, something profound about the nature of God was made known to us - the one true God is a communion of Divine Persons (v. 11).

[i]Is the trinity easy to understand? [/i]On the contrary, it's mind-boggling! It's a holy, divine mystery. But should the nature of God be so simple that it leaves us with no questions? The many Jews that followed Jesus didn't think so. Yahweh had always been wrapped in mystery. This was the same God, after all, who led his people to clear out the promised land and, yet, told David he had split too much blood to build God's Temple (1 Chr 22:8). God's nature was never simplistic.

Let me ask you this: [i]Is love easy to understand?[/i] Can we put a solid definition on it that encompasses it all? Can we see it and diagram it and use our reason to reach a consensus on what it means to love? Maybe in part. But ask a new mother, or a spouse that's lost the love of their life, or a father welcoming their son home from war, and you'll see there are many things in life that are deeper and more profound than we can express. God did not leave us clueless, no. [b]He revealed his nature to be a true communion[/b], something indeed very profound (as [i]Theology of the Bod[/i]y delves into). And with that framework, we see so much clearer how our lives should always imitate God's call to be "one" (v. 11). To [i]fully[/i] understand God, though, we must wait until we are perfected in Glory.

[part 2 next...]

[PapaHilarious]

[b]#2. Haven't Christians always been aggressors against Jews?[/b] Much of this has already been addressed, but one important thing to consider is how the Judeo-Christian schism happened. Though there was considerable disagreement with those Jews who denied Christ's divinity in the first century, Christians were considered a (loose) part of Judaism for roughly 40 years after Jesus, even though the Christian "sect" suffered much discrimination like banishment from the temple.

However, when the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem planned the revolt of 70AD, they called on all of God's People to participate. [b]The Christians would not raise up arms.[/b] Even worse, the high priest declared a Jewish military leader to be the new Messiah. For any Christian to join the cause against Rome, they would have to deny Jesus.

After the terrible defeat of the rebellion, the remaining Jewish authorities held a considerable grudge against the Christians who would not participate and used this animosity as a basis for purging their Scriptures of what they felt were foreign influences. [b]There would be no more loose connection between Jews and Christians.[/b] Christianity grew and followed the command of God to draw all people to be One, while the Pharisees in Jerusalem sought to make their faith more exclusive and sever ties with any who did not grant them absolute authority.

In the beginning, it appears, it was the Jewish powers - not the Christians - who sought to persecute and ostracize those with differing beliefs.

[last part...]

[PapaHilarious]

[b]#3. How do we know Jesus was who He said He was?[/b] This relates obviously to previous questions, but I see it as an underlying theme in this thread. As we know, faith is like love. It cannot be completely grasped. But consider this...

Jesus was not the first to claim to be the Messiah, nor the last. He was, in fact, only one of thousands crucified by the Romans. Many of these even spoke as prophets and had large followings, too. So what was so different about this poor carpenter from a tiny village in a conquered nation? An NBC agnostic (on one of those [i]Search for Jesus[/i] type shows) said it best: [b]If Jesus never rose from the dead, something even [i]more[/i] miraculous happened. [/b]

Islam would spread through power and military conquest. It's easy to see how such religions grow. But Christianity spreading through people willingly giving up their lives to certain death? Twelve simple men saw their leader - who claimed to be God - die like a criminal and [i]still[/i] chose to proclaim Him as Lord at the cost of their very lives?? The rich giving up their power to die like slaves? The poor and oppressed choosing martyrdom over resistance?

Under the rule of Rome, there was no power to be had in being a Christian. No wealth. No glory. Only humiliation, terrible torture, and death - for you and your family. And for what cause? Freedom? Justice? Equality? No. None of those. [b]The cause was faith in Jesus as Christ, as Lord.[/b] Without it. Without the Resurrection, history simply doesn't make sense.

Ultimately, of course, it still comes down to faith. But I always find history helpful too

[abercius24]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405481' date='Oct 19 2007, 01:51 PM']Where in the Tanakh are these prophecies. I know Isaiah (Suffering servant is one of the thing that led to my great grandmother's conversion to Lutheranism, from Reform Judaism). What are the others?[/quote]

The funny thing is, the entirety of the Old Testament is a prophecy of Christ. All of it foreshadows Christ in some manner or another. I can give you some of the highlights, but the best way to understand it all is to do a thorough Catholic Bible study of Paul's epistles. He was a Pharisee who studied under the Jewish scribe Gamaleal, so he has a very estute way of demonstrating Christ's life as a fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. I'll follow up in some later posts after I collect some scripture quotes.

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1405493' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:18 PM']Remember the dream of St. Augustine? (Paraphrasing...I'm sure somebody will jump on this with the exact quote....but here it is for now...)

He was walking upon the beach and came across a little boy filling a bucket with sand. He stopped and asked the child what he was doing. The child told him he was going to put ALL of the sand from all of the beaches into his bucket, and clear the shores. St. Augustine laughed and told him he would never succeed. It would take too long. The little boy looked at him and said, "I will complete this task before you understand the true nature of God."

Please do not let your intellect confuse you and carry you away. We call ourselves the Body of Christ because we are a body. Bring your heart back...

Our Faith is a Faith that has unfolded through the centuries, touching the hearts and souls of the powerful and lowly alike. We have glorious saints, magnificient artwork, spectacular music and a culture that transcends all ethnic and racial groupings. We have poetic litanies, fabulous writings and prayers that stretch our minds and hearts, and customs to beautiful to endure. We have Mystics, Doctors of the Church, Virgins, Confessors, Religious and Lay. We have Hermits, Consecrated Virgins, Priests, Deacons, Brothers, Nuns and Monks. We birthed the Franciscans, Dominicans, Marianists, Carmelites, Jesuits, Carthusians, Benedictines and too many thousand more to list. We believe that as bad as Friday is, Sunday is right around the corner, and the Resurrection lives and breathes life into everything we touch....

We can walk into St. Peter's and know we are truly Home and the beauty that surrounds us there is a mere and failed attempt at revealing the true beauty of the Redeemer in all of His majesty glory, whom has touched us with His merciful Hand. And when things seem lost and unbearable and without hope, we can place ourselves within the Mantle of Our Lady and know She will bring us to Her Son, with loving hands and a comforting peace.

When nobody else would touch or care for PWA, we did (thank you, Mother Teresa). When the lepers were untouchable and shunned, we were there. When the children were abandoned and forgotten, we took them in. We created an educational system in the United States that set the standard for all other educational systems in this country. We refused to be discriminated against, and we took care of ourselves, and everybody else at the same time. The Sisters took the proceeds from the expensive schools and built schools for the poor. We educated the Poor, Women, Blacks, Indians, the Irish, Italians and Mexicans. We brought opportunity and dignity to the impoverished, and we continue to do that today. We built hospitals the world over and again, set the standard for health care. Without thought of religion, race or financial status. We were not content to sit quietly and take care of our own...not ever. We spoke, and continue to speak, for those without a voice...be it an unborn child nestled in his mother's womb or a comatose woman with a murderous husband.

From the moment of that first Pentecost, we have not contained our joy, our knowledge or the grace of the Sacraments. We have welcomed, invited and embraced. We have endured our human condition and have sat with steadfast hearts many Dark Nights of the Soul. We have been redeemed through the grace of God, and we are blessed beyond all understanding. The enemy shakes at the Name of Jesus Christ, he recoils at the sight of Holy Water, he runs from the Sacraments. We stand upon the blood of the martyrs and their lives were not in vain.

We are sons and daughters of the King, and we will have life everlasting.[/quote]

Very nice! Makes me very proud to be a Catholic in this light!