Judaism

[hyperdulia again]

I cannot help it. There is something inside of me that could almost see converting to Judaism. Every thing about it seems to call me. Well almost everything the no Eucharist/ no saints/no Jesus thing is a turn off, but everything else seems to satisfy this hunger that Catholicism (surely my fault, not the Church's) has never been able to. I am very afraid that I might end up converting. The more I read the more the hunger increases. Disbelief has not replaced faith in Catholic dogma, but a kind of deep doubt I've never had before has.

Explain some things to me:

Are the two covenants really compatible?
The Trinity vs the other Abrahamic religions strong rejection of any idea that God could be a man, or that God could be subdivided into different persons?
What evidence is there that Jesus thought of Himself as anything other than a Jewish prophet?
The bloody history of Christian antisemitism (not the shoah, which was a crime of the clearly pagan Nazis).
The rejection of the Law, what did Jesus say that led to His first century followers doing this?
What is the Church's Teaching regarding the Jewish people.

[abercius24]

Probably the largest concern I would have in converting is the fact that Judaism no longer has a priesthood nor the proper means to offer sacrifices. After the Destruction of Jerusalem only the "teachers", the rabbis, were left to carry on what remained of their faith; all the priests were killed and the Temple was destroyed. Modern Judaism is not the same faith as it was in the time of Christ. Only as a Catholic (or Orthodox) can one offer a worthy sacrifice to God in the only acceptable temple that remains today -- Christ Jesus Himself. As far as the Old Covenant is concerned, it was only meant to last until the fulfillment of all Messianic prophecies, which Christ Himself fulfilled. As God promised to Abraham, all the nations would be reunited to his faith -- which has occured as a result of Christ's establishment of the Universal Church, the Catholic Church. A valid faith still remains with the Jewish people, but given the circumstances it is now incomplete. A Jew who has naturally followed the salvific course of events must be a Catholic. Despite all that we take for granted as Catholics, we possess the completion of the Hebrew faith.

Edited October 18, 2007 by abercius24

[hyperdulia again]

Thank you abercius..

I know it's not related to homosexuality, but I'm a transsexual, so maybe that's close enough to warrant more responses??

[hyperdulia again]

Theokotos, what does the extraordinary for mean? [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=73781"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=73781[/url]

Abercius, What if the temple were rebuilt? Orthodox Judaism cherishes the hope that it will be one day.

[hyperdulia again]

How does one faith complete another? I don't think any of us think Protestantism completes Catholicism (rather it deforms and perverts Catholicism 'till it's almost unrecognizable. "They have mislaid my Lord.")?

Edited October 19, 2007 by hyperdulia again

[CatherineM]

I saw a show on EWTN once where a woman who had been born a Jew was talking about her conversion to Catholicism. She said that the first time she attended mass, that it was very familiar to her. So many of the prayers at the altar are based on their Jewish roots, that she felt right at home. It sounds to me as if you are searching for something deeper, something older, to grasp a hold of.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1405182' date='Oct 18 2007, 10:15 PM']I saw a show on EWTN once where a woman who had been born a Jew was talking about her conversion to Catholicism. She said that the first time she attended mass, that it was very familiar to her. So many of the prayers at the altar are based on their Jewish roots, that she felt right at home. It sounds to me as if you are searching for something deeper, something older, to grasp a hold of.[/quote]

that might have been Rosaline Moss. she's written a few books and does apologetics for Catholic Answers.

i'll try to get back and post more in this thread tomorrow...

[abercius24]

My statements do not change based on your chosen lifestyle (living as a transexual). I don't believe sexual behavior should define a person's core being. I would do you injustice to approach your dignity as a human being from that perspective. We all have sins that we have to deal with. That does not change who God is and what He expects from us.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405133' date='Oct 18 2007, 11:09 PM']Abercius, What if the temple were rebuilt? Orthodox Judaism cherishes the hope that it will be one day.[/quote]

I've heard many planning for such an event. They still have the problem of the lost preisthood, though, which is passed down by family inheritance. Some have stated they can trace some living individuals back with proper lineage, but I honestly don't think they have the means to do so.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405164' date='Oct 18 2007, 11:58 PM']How does one faith complete another? I don't think any of us think Protestantism completes Catholicism (rather it deforms and perverts Catholicism 'till it's almost unrecognizable. "They have mislaid my Lord.")?[/quote]

We are of the same faith and of the same Church as the Jews -- the Faith of the Patriarchs. We are just at different places in the Church's development. We both share the faith of Adam and Eve, of Noah and Shem, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses and King David, and that of all the prophets. The Church has developed as God has offered revelation to His people: from a family, to a nation of tribes, to an earthly kingdom, and now to a Heavenly Kingdom. Jesus Christ holds the Rod of David. He IS the living King of the Jews, and now also of the Gentiles. He has united all nations under the Davidic Kingdom as Solomon once attempted (and failed) to do. All these things have been prophecied from the beginning. The Jews themselves recognize that their faith is incomplete given the fact that they are still waiting for the Messiah and the fulfillment of messianic prophecy. We see that those prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ and we have taken the next step. We are the Jewish Church now expanded to include the Gentiles as God has promised. The Catholic Church is the completion of Messianic prophecy.

Edited October 19, 2007 by abercius24

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1405187' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:22 AM']that might have been Rosaline Moss. she's written a few books and does apologetics for Catholic Answers.

i'll try to get back and post more in this thread tomorrow...[/quote]
I like her.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 05:44 PM']Are the two covenants really compatible?[/quote]

The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants never promised eternal salvation. Only through Christ are we saved. Hence, Christ doesn't abolish the Law, but he fulfills it.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 05:44 PM']The Trinity vs the other Abrahamic religions strong rejection of any idea that God could be a man, or that God could be subdivided into different persons?[/quote]

Where does the Old Testament specifically reject the Incarnation or Trinity? If these doctrines were rejected in Judaism, I doubt so many Jews and Jewish priests would've accepted Christianity during the Church's infancy. Plus, there would be some problems with us having the Old Testament in our Bibles...

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 05:44 PM']What evidence is there that Jesus thought of Himself as anything other than a Jewish prophet?[/quote]

The Resurrection and Ascension, commissioning his apostles to go out and baptize "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," to forgive sins, the Last Supper, praying to the Father that "this cup be taken from me" while submitting to the Father's will, calling himself the Son of God, and many other things that Jesus did that would've been pretty unusual for any other Jewish prophet to do. Guess that's why the Pharisees and Saducees didn't take to kindly to him.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 05:44 PM']The bloody history of Christian antisemitism (not the shoah, which was a crime of the clearly pagan Nazis).[/quote]

That's politics, which the Church regrettably got too mixed up in (and still is to this day in many "Catholic" countries). Church history isn't pretty, but it doesn't take away from our need for a Savior.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 05:44 PM']The rejection of the Law, what did Jesus say that led to His first century followers doing this?
What is the Church's Teaching regarding the Jewish people.[/quote]

Through Christ, we are obedient to every letter and iota of the Law. I've heard some of this explained in a conversation with a Dominican priest who gave a couple of examples of how specific sacrifices from the Law are actually completed eternally in the suffering and Crucifixion of Christ. Of course, I don't remember the details, but it would be worth researching.

[cmotherofpirl]

I understand the pull, I have experienced it myself. Check out this site: [url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/[/url]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1404947' date='Oct 18 2007, 03:44 PM']I cannot help it. There is something inside of me that could almost see converting to Judaism. Every thing about it seems to call me. Well almost everything the no Eucharist/ no saints/no Jesus thing is a turn off, but everything else seems to satisfy this hunger that Catholicism (surely my fault, not the Church's) has never been able to. I am very afraid that I might end up converting. The more I read the more the hunger increases. Disbelief has not replaced faith in Catholic dogma, but a kind of deep doubt I've never had before has.

Explain some things to me:

Are the two covenants really compatible?
The Trinity vs the other Abrahamic religions strong rejection of any idea that God could be a man, or that God could be subdivided into different persons?
What evidence is there that Jesus thought of Himself as anything other than a Jewish prophet?
The bloody history of Christian antisemitism (not the shoah, which was a crime of the clearly pagan Nazis).
The rejection of the Law, what did Jesus say that led to His first century followers doing this?
What is the Church's Teaching regarding the Jewish people.[/quote]
Read the Letter to the Hebrews.

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1405133' date='Oct 18 2007, 10:09 PM']Theokotos, what does the extraordinary for mean? [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=73781"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=73781[/url]

Abercius, What if the temple were rebuilt? Orthodox Judaism cherishes the hope that it will be one day.[/quote]
It doesn't matter. Herod rebuilt the Temple but God's Shekinah Glory, His presence, didn't manifest Itself in the Holy of Holies because Herod's Temple wasn't God's Temple.

Ultimately, there really isn't an Old Covenant and a New Covenant - indeed, there have been many covenants throughout the history of God's relationship with man - but just A Covenant that has found its ultimate expression in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. In that context, followers of Christ [i]are[/i] Jews, though circumcised in the heart, not in the flesh. To "go back" is to trade the substance for the shadow.

[hyperdulia again]

"Herod's Temple wasn't God's Temple"

The temple Yeshua worshipped at? The temple he drove the moneychangers from? Where does the Bible say this? If it's from Tradition who said it, when?

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1405182' date='Oct 19 2007, 12:15 AM']I saw a show on EWTN once where a woman who had been born a Jew was talking about her conversion to Catholicism. She said that the first time she attended mass, that it was very familiar to her. So many of the prayers at the altar are based on their Jewish roots, that she felt right at home. It sounds to me as if you are searching for something deeper, something older, to grasp a hold of.[/quote]

I think I have read the text of her conversion. The Mass is very similar in parts to Charedi worship, especially the Old Mass.

[hyperdulia again]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1405299' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:34 AM']The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants never promised eternal salvation. Only through Christ are we saved. Hence, Christ doesn't abolish the Law, but he fulfills it.
Where does the Old Testament specifically reject the Incarnation or Trinity? If these doctrines were rejected in Judaism, I doubt so many Jews and Jewish priests would've accepted Christianity during the Church's infancy. Plus, there would be some problems with us having the Old Testament in our Bibles...[/quote]

I guess that regarding the Holy Trinity we'd have to start with the Possibility of a Being existing as three different persons. How can one being, be three co-equal, co-eternal persons and remain one being? The Tanakh (Old Testament) clearly teaches that our God is one.

The other Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Islam) are usually to kind to plainly say it, but they think the Trinity is polytheism masquerading as monotheism. The fact of many Jews converting to Christianity seems immaterial to me. One out of every five Buddhists in this country is Jewish.

If the Trinity is a logical impossibility and we are really talking about three gods. It is clearly rejected in the Tanakh. Even if it isn't rejected "specifically" in the Tanakh, the burden of proof belongs to the religion that is making the completionist claim.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1405299' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:34 AM']The Resurrection and Ascension, commissioning his apostles to go out and baptize "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," to forgive sins, the Last Supper, praying to the Father that "this cup be taken from me" while submitting to the Father's will, calling himself the Son of God, and many other things that Jesus did that would've been pretty unusual for any other Jewish prophet to do. Guess that's why the Pharisees and Saducees didn't take to kindly to him.
That's politics, which the Church regrettably got too mixed up in (and still is to this day in many "Catholic" countries). Church history isn't pretty, but it doesn't take away from our need for a Savior.[/quote]

Good points. I see no need to put Catholic in quotes though. The Church does not.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1405299' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:34 AM']Through Christ, we are obedient to every letter and iota of the Law. I've heard some of this explained in a conversation with a Dominican priest who gave a couple of examples of how specific sacrifices from the Law are actually completed eternally in the suffering and Crucifixion of Christ. Of course, I don't remember the details, but it would be worth researching.[/quote]

Why would God institute the Law only to abrogate it? What about the picture of God in the Tanakh makes one think He would "fulfill the Law" in His person.

Edited October 19, 2007 by hyperdulia again