This Is For Me And Revprodji

[GodChaser]

First, before I do this, I have to ask the really silly questions in really silly ways.

Why don't the cogregation in the Catholic Church church get to drink of the wine in the cup? I would probably go, if I could get a gulp of the 'blood'!

Then, why do you pray to saints? I don't send prayer requests to anybody but my father through the name of Jesus Christ.

Thirdly, why does your baptism have to be in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit? Does that mean people who were baptized in Jesus name can never be saved? And how did the Disciples of Jesus Baptize followers and Jesus was considered the one who baptized.

[quote]John 4:1-3

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.[/quote]

Could they have been using his name to baptize the believers they preached too, and that is why the Pharisees heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John?

Why should we pray to Mary to interceed for us sinners before? How can a human girl be the mother of god? She is only the mother of the Christ in human form, not the creator of the son in heaven?

Is not the only mediator between God and men is Jesus Christ?

[quote]1 Timothy 2:4-6

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[b]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;[/b]

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.[/quote]

Why does the Catholic Church support the notion of Evolution, which is not the truth, hasn't been proven, and will never be proven, when 50 years ago, a bishop thought it was some passing fad in science that will never be proven or truly accepted?

Why does the Catholic Church leadership support the notion of global warming is harmful to humanity, when it hasn't been proven it is?

Why does the Catholic Church have some many pictures of Christ and others, that people will use to pray with, when the Bible says not to bow before any graven image?

Not that I am saying doctrine is all that matters. Anybody could follow every single doctrine men make, but still end up in hell because they did not have true faith in Christ's redemption, nor showed forth the love of Christ.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Revprodeji and GodChaser have requested that they be allowed to have a private thread so they can more easily discuss some topics. They were given permission to do so, and here on out any posts from anyone other than Rev and GodChaser will be deleted. Consider this your warning.

[N/A Gone]

Do not just give them a warning, but rather delete their posts please.

Godchaser, this is how I want to roll. Make a list, make it a readable list. You do not have to go into detail, but just a list. Like you can say

1-eucharist
2-baptism
3-music
4-etc

then what I want to do is discuss one issue at a time. If we find a tangent issue we will add it to the list, but my desire is to say on course with 1 issue at a time. Often, written dialogue gets frustrating and fails because people try and address 30 issues at one. I think this will be more productive for us, it will take some time. But it isnt a shot gun approach that has no fruit. So looking at your first post I would say your list so far is

1-wine
2-role of saints
3-intercessory prayer (saints/mary/jesus)
4-trinitarian baptism (including scripture exegesis)
5-mary-mother of God
6-CC teaching on evolution
7-global warming
8-icons/graven images
9-importance of doctrine

So lets add to this list, and then I want you to rank them if you could. We will discuss a matter until we want to move on to the next. You are a friend and I am willing to put some time into this if you are.

But, like I said in our PM. I want you to cite catholic teaching. If you say "catholics believe___" I want it cited please. And from a legit source that you could use in a college paper. There is enough polemic blogs out there to convince us all that Dairy Queen is hiding elvis, we dont need that fluff in here.


btw, goldenchild, etc. I asked Godchaser to give me a list. In order to focus and avoid the shot-gun approach.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1404186' date='Oct 17 2007, 08:34 AM']1-wine
2-role of saints
3-intercessory prayer (saints/mary/jesus)
4-trinitarian baptism (including scripture exegesis)
5-mary-mother of God
6-CC teaching on evolution
7-global warming
8-icons/graven images
9-importance of doctrine[/quote]

Yeah, That's a good first list to go with. Lets make this a whole, lets learn about what each other's point of view. I'm not looking to convert, and I recognize that there is good in the Catholic Faith for it to be hit so much by satanic influence.

Satan wouldn't want to hurt it, if it didn't actully do some harm to his kingdom. But, there are preachers on oneness churches who also get attacked for taking stands as well, so again, all churches are targets for Satan's workings, evidently.

Lets add the rosary to this as well, I want to understand why that is important to Catholics as well. I'm more of a free form prayer person, I like being lead by my gut during prayer (you know what I mean by that, because we've talked about that before).

Lets add confession to the mix as well.

Edited October 18, 2007 by GodChaser

[N/A Gone]

Godchaser, I am going to be out of town this weekend until monday. I want you to finish the list up this weekend. if thats ok with you. Then, after you rank them go ahead and explain your thoughts with whatever issue is the first one on the list. ANd we can talk about it when I get back.

God bless.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1404769' date='Oct 18 2007, 09:37 AM']Godchaser, I am going to be out of town this weekend until monday. I want you to finish the list up this weekend. if thats ok with you. Then, after you rank them go ahead and explain your thoughts with whatever issue is the first one on the list. ANd we can talk about it when I get back.

God bless.[/quote]

Before I go into my point of view on these topics, lets first go into prayer.

Father YHWH, thank you for sending your son, Yeshua, giving us a name which we can find salvation, to give us light in this dark world, wisdom in a world filled with foolishness, and a sound mind in a world gone mad. Thank you for your sacrifice Yeshua, for stepping out of glory, and into our world, to live and die for us because we were so important in your eyes, you needed to die for us. I ask that this thread be a beacon of understanding and unity in the human race. And that it would teach each and every one of us to love each other as you loved us Yeshua, to make every single person around us so important that we would live for them with all we have in us. Testify that I already live this life for each and every single one here on this board, as I have, and will continue, to be a sheep lead to the slaughter, but yea, I am more than a conqueror through you because you loved us. I pray all of this in the holy and exalted name of Jesus Christ, amen.


1-CC teaching on evolution

Here's my point of view on this.

First, there are tonnes of evidences that point out evolution is not valid.

[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8463129851563631666"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8463129851563631666[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7815613109692636650"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7815613109692636650[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6833722951687298593"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6833722951687298593[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5665691163985573518"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5665691163985573518[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5240112600444883198"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5240112600444883198[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7151934276297772786"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7151934276297772786[/url]
[url="http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-24125197328580007"]http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-24125197328580007[/url]

From what I have heard, on this board, and from news sources, is that Catholics actually frown upon the 6-day creation story, considering it a myth, and I've even heard one story that a Catholic Astrologer (shouldn't that be an oximoron?) saying it was a pagan belief, and people who believe that are pagans?

[url="http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006"]http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006[/url]

Now, on my thoughts.

If you frequent Christian groups on the Internet, invetiably, there are Athiests who will be there saying Christians are

1.) Uneducated.
2.) Poor.
3.) Violent.

They think that people shouldn't believe Christianity, and they always use Evolution to try to show how 'stupid' Christians are. Anybody believing in any kind of spirituality is really dumb in their eyes.

Now, when you get Athiest leaders, who think anybody who believes in a religion is dumb, what do you get. Mao, Stalin, Hitler (He was an athiest who loved reading Luciferian documents like the Secret Doctrine), and many others, who were responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, including many who believed in a religion. Great bunch of guys, weeding out the uneducated, poor, and stupid people who actually believe in God. They did evolution a great service.

So if there is any slight leanings towards this, to say, God guided evolution, than we have a leaning which Athiests will continue to use to say Christians who believe in the 6-day creation story are dumb, uneducated, and poor, and therefore, they need to be 're-educated' or eliminated.

Therefore, I am against this 100 per cent.

2-global warming

Again, this is another point which I have to argue the Pope's stance on us needing to 'be stewards' of the earth, because we are already pretty good stewards, normal people. Corporations who put hundreds of millions of tonnes of toxic wastes in the ocean every single year, well that's another story.

Here's my opinion of Global Warming
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3069943905833454241&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=30...54241&hl=en[/url]
[url="http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/161106suvjupiter.htm"]http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/novem...6suvjupiter.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_021009.html"]http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/plut...ing_021009.html[/url]
[url="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html"]http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html[/url]
[url="http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20061109-022035-4126r"]http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?Stor...09-022035-4126r[/url]
[url="http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc_sys.shtml"]http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199805260...trunc_sys.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/092897/study.htm"]http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/092897/study.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html[/url]

If he is asking for Carbon Taxes, and for reduction in green house gases, because human beings are causing global warming, than I disagree, and I know my impact on the environment is very little, and it is not really harming the people in Africa, and it is far more likely it is just a natural cycle, and I should do my part to help my friends in Africa while they are going through such a turbulent time.

Think about it like this, 60 years ago, they said there was going to be an ice age, because the tempratures were continuing to lower. (If Global warming has been increasing because of industrialization, why was there a cooling period 60 years ago, back when there was expanding industry and more CO2 than any other time in the earths history before?)

This directly ties with the whole evolution thing, because we are 'way to overpopulated' (I don't believe that anymore), and we need to do our part to ensure the environment is disrupted at all. That will bring a 1-child policy, which I think, finally, most Catholics will not go for, so I agree that is a small thorn in the elite's side.

Now with that out of the way, lets go onto the smaller things.

1-wine

I think everybody needs to partake in the body and the blood of Jesus. It's scriptural, and that's that.

2-role of saints

Other than to serve us as reminders of the sacrifice that should be in our hearts, I don't know what role the saints have, other than praying to God for his will to be done on the earth, while they are in heaven.

3-intercessory prayer (saints/mary/jesus)

Why ask men in heaven to bring your requests before God when,

[quote name='God @ Philippians 4:5-7']Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.[/quote]

[quote name='God @ Hebrews 4:15-16']For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/quote]

[quote name='God @ John 14:13']And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.[/quote]

[quote name='God @ John 15:16']Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.[/quote]

[quote name='God @ John 16:23']And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.[/quote]

[quote name='God @ John 16:26']At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:[/quote]

4-trinitarian baptism (including scripture exegesis)

My personal point of view, this is a null subject. Both Baptisms show faith in the believer in Christ's sacrifice for us, and we will be saved through our faith, through the Grace God gives to those who believe. I am 100 per cent confident that both baptisms are valid, because both feel right in my belly.

5-mary-mother of God

To put this politely, I will probably have the same reaction to your explanation of this as I did when I read the premises of oneness belief again, and that is, I will probably have a knot in my stomach concerning that teaching. And when God talks, it is through our bellies, because out of our bellies shall flow rivers of living waters. If it doesn't feel right in your stomach, don't do it, don't read it, don't believe it. If it feels right, do it, read it, and believe it!

Of course, this would only apply to those who have the holy spirit. If you don't, pray for it, and ask for it to guide you, and it will.


6-icons/graven images

As above.

7-importance of doctrine

Agreed that doctrine is important, but not as important as letting the spirit guide you and direct you. It will guide you into all truth.

8-Confession.

There is a good scripture above, saying Jesus Christ is our high priest, and we are to come before the throne of grace boldy. So, why tell a priest your sins, when you can also go before God and tell them?

9- Rosary

Though I have heard the arguement that Jesus didn't mean the rosary when he said this

[quote name='God @ Matthew 6:7']But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.[/quote]

That Scripture and the Rosary feel the same to me. And as I said, I listen to my gut on these things.

So, you can go from there.

[GodChaser]

Double Post. Sorry.

Edited October 20, 2007 by GodChaser

[N/A Gone]

Godchaser...

one issue at a time. Make the list..and lets go from there, is this the list you want to go with? If that is the case lets start with the first issue and not discuss the others yet.

You mentioned evolution. Is that the first one you want to go over? If that is the case I will read the at one. But let me know what you want to do.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1407218' date='Oct 22 2007, 12:03 PM']Godchaser...

one issue at a time. Make the list..and lets go from there, is this the list you want to go with? If that is the case lets start with the first issue and not discuss the others yet.

You mentioned evolution. Is that the first one you want to go over? If that is the case I will read the at one. But let me know what you want to do.[/quote]
Lets go over Evolution right now, because I consider this a vitially important issue for the world today in general. Are we made in the image of God, or are we just a piece of meat that came here by chance. . .

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1407240' date='Oct 22 2007, 01:44 PM']Lets go over Evolution right now, because I consider this a vitially important issue for the world today in general. Are we made in the image of God, or are we just a piece of meat that came here by chance. . .[/quote]

One of the first things I learned years ago in my industry is that we cant trust 90% of stuff online. I have no desire to argue google video, or blogs. Lets keep sources and citings real.

That being said, what do you believe is the catholic church's position on evolution? Please cite it from either the CCC, from a council, or I will even let you do New Advent. (If you have OTT it would be great, but I doubt you do and there is no web version) Pretty much stick to those. If something was not declared in them then tell me why you believe the church teaches these things. Lets discuss that.


[quote name='GodChaser' post='1404108' date='Oct 17 2007, 01:18 AM']Why does the Catholic Church support the notion of Evolution, which is not the truth, hasn't been proven, and will never be proven, when 50 years ago, a bishop thought it was some passing fad in science that will never be proven or truly accepted?[/quote]

Like I said above, show me where the Catholic church supports the notion of evolution. I am not saying they do or they dont, I would just like a common ground statement for us to work from.

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1405970' date='Oct 20 2007, 05:09 AM']1-CC teaching on evolution

Here's my point of view on this.

First, there are tonnes of evidences that point out evolution is not valid.

From what I have heard, on this board, and from news sources, is that Catholics actually frown upon the 6-day creation story, considering it a myth, and I've even heard one story that a Catholic Astrologer (shouldn't that be an oximoron?) saying it was a pagan belief, and people who believe that are pagans?

Now, on my thoughts.

If you frequent Christian groups on the Internet, invetiably, there are Athiests who will be there saying Christians are

1.) Uneducated.
2.) Poor.
3.) Violent.

They think that people shouldn't believe Christianity, and they always use Evolution to try to show how 'stupid' Christians are. Anybody believing in any kind of spirituality is really dumb in their eyes.

Now, when you get Athiest leaders, who think anybody who believes in a religion is dumb, what do you get. Mao, Stalin, Hitler (He was an athiest who loved reading Luciferian documents like the Secret Doctrine), and many others, who were responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, including many who believed in a religion. Great bunch of guys, weeding out the uneducated, poor, and stupid people who actually believe in God. They did evolution a great service.

So if there is any slight leanings towards this, to say, God guided evolution, than we have a leaning which Athiests will continue to use to say Christians who believe in the 6-day creation story are dumb, uneducated, and poor, and therefore, they need to be 're-educated' or eliminated.

Therefore, I am against this 100 per cent.[/quote]


Before we discuss evolution, lets figure out what the church teaches. I see no benefit of just arguing this point with you without the foundation of the churches view.

now, about the document the Pope issued a while ago here was my take...

He is not saying that catholicism teaches evolution. What he is saying is that all the time spent on the debate is wrong. The concept of "God using evolution" (called theistic evolution btw) has been around for a very long time. It is very common in the protestant world also. A former mentor of mine, Dr. Greg Boyd, was a theistic evolutionist.

The basic point of the argument is that we dont know. What we do know is that God started it. How he did it, we dont know. We dont know that from scripture, and science is learning more, but is not there yet. So why are we waisting all this time and energy on something we cant know, and does not effect the salvation of the faithful? If God said "poof" man..or if God said look..a monkey, let me give him a soul. Does it matter? Science and religion in their proper form should compliment each other. Science studies the world created by the Divine. The issue is when we see the two as enemies. Or when we assume an understanding that we dont have. (as a former genetics student we still know macro evolution is a theory, it is still working out its kinks) The main issue of the Pope is that we should not be fighting this pointless fight, rather we should be concerned with what we are doing to the earth right now.