Is It Ever Okay For A Minor To Consume Alcohol?

[XIX]

I tend to be opposed to underage drinking. It's not objectively immoral for a 20 year old to drink alcohol. But in the event that the drinking age is a stupid law, it is still not an unjust law. It doesn't prevent you from any moral obligations, as abstaining from drink is not immoral; ergo, I would argue that the law is not unjust.

We are still bound to Caesar. Any man-made law that does not directly conflict with divine law is to be obeyed.

[hyperdulia again]

Yes it's ok for minors to consume alcohol.

[Farsight one]

Yeah it's ok. Most countries allow minors to drink, and in the states it doesn't matter how old you are, provided you are at your home and have your parents/guardians present.

[SaintOlaf]

I think you make the right point about submitting to our local authorities. We are not free to pick and choose which laws we want to obey, just based on our feelings, the law is there for a reason.

Personally, I think the drinking age should be lowered to 18, many other countries have similar laws (Canada is 19 in most provinces, I know Europe is even lower than that, perhaps 16). As with all things however, education is key. I think we see a lack of alcohol education in the school system, because kids are going to do it anyway. Educating them on knowing when to quit and knowing what to do if they get in a bad situation is important.

[CatholicCid]

In a state/country where alcohol consumption has a set age limit, then no, it is not okay for a minor to consume alcohol. As you said, a limited drinking age is not an unjust law and therefore we have no reason to disobey it. If anything, we would have an obligation to obey it.

SaintOlaf, I would agree that I believe the US drinking age should be lowered to the age of 18... however, I would fear for an abuse of alcohol by those freely allowed to drink alcohol when they were not able to before at the very begining of the change. Our paper actually had a debate about this, and a bartender actually wrote in against changing it, sighting such fears. I think it is something that we have set and might be stuck with now... However, I have never really thought of alcohol education in school before. It is an interesting idea.

Edited October 15, 2007 by CatholicCid

[hyperdulia again]

Of course I'm free to pick and choose which laws I'll obey. This government has no authority. The Church is the repository of all authority on the earth and I see no indication that it has admitted the U.S. Gov. into some kind of power sharing scheme.


*goes to hide more illegal CATHOLIC aliens*

[CatholicCid]

A Reference to what the Catechism says on this matter:

[quote][b]Duties of civil authorities [/b]

2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. "Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."41 The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.42

[u]2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.[/u]

The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

[b]The duties of citizens [/b]

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. [u]Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.[/u]

2240 [u]Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:[/u]


[u]Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.[/u]45
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . [u]They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws[/u]. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2242 [i][b]The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community.[/b][/i] "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49


When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50
2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.[/quote]

Emphasis mine, quoted specifically for the topic at at hand, alcohol consumption of minors.

While some see drinking laws as silly, I do not think they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel.

Edited October 15, 2007 by CatholicCid

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1402551' date='Oct 14 2007, 10:35 PM']Of course I'm free to pick and choose which laws I'll obey. This government has no authority. The Church is the repository of all authority on the earth and I see no indication that it has admitted the U.S. Gov. into some kind of power sharing scheme.
*goes to hide more illegal CATHOLIC aliens*[/quote]I [i]knew[/i] there was life on other planets! And just think: [i]Catholic[/i] life!

[hyperdulia again]

1) the catechism is not infallible.
2) do you accuse the millions of Catholic lay people who joyously disregard the absurd puritanical "drinking laws" of this country of sin?

[jeffpugh]

I think it depends. Cause I think in Canada one can consume alcohol "under age" in the home, under parental supervision. not too sure though... But, this is a good debate question to bring up.

On an other note, I don't have to wait too long... March isn't too far now...

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1402579' date='Oct 14 2007, 08:57 PM']1) the catechism is not infallible.
2) do you accuse the millions of Catholic lay people who joyously disregard the absurd puritanical "drinking laws" of this country of sin?[/quote]

I'll look for a Church document when I have time. The Catechism just happens to be on my shelf. What is wrong though of the Catechism's summary of this though?

I would consider it disobedience to a just law. What that would fall under, I do not know.


Sacred Music Man, I believe you are correct of Canada... I've always found their laws somewhat odd... You can drink, but you are not allowed to buy it... Same applies for cigarrettes... You can smoke, but you can't buy the smokes until a certain age... Or so my Canadian friends have said.

Edited October 15, 2007 by CatholicCid

[hyperdulia again]

..if anyone wants to look for a thread prominently featuring Don John of Austria, myself, and others...all sides are covered well.

[kateri05]

[quote]I think you make the right point about submitting to our local authorities. We are not free to pick and choose which laws we want to obey, just based on our feelings, the law is there for a reason.[/quote]


amen!! alcohol in and of itself isn't the issue, its the submitting to authorities point that is so important. its just like speed limits. underage drinking in no way violates conscience, so therefore, we're (unfortunately?) bound to follow it.

i will say, however, that the law does permit parents to give their own children alcohol in the home. (like, a little drink with dinner, or, a 1/4 glass of champagne on your confirmation )

[photosynthesis]

When I get married & have kids, I want to have control over what my children learn about alcohol. My betrothed is Italian, and I'm Irish. Although these cultures are very different, alcohol is a very important part of community life and it's something we both grew up with. Since alcohol is a part of community life, I'd want my children's attitudes towards it to be shaped by Catholic culture and not worldly culture.

The truth is, even if you try really hard to keep your children from drinking underage, they will probably try it on their own somehow, when they move out or go to college. Basically, I have 2 choices: teach my children to drink in a responsible Catholic way, or let them learn about drinking from their roommates & friends, who don't really care about the spiritual well-being of my child.

My betrothed & I really want our children to appreciate the finer things in life--high art, sacred music, literary classics, theatre, cinema, etc. We want them to develop good manners and Catholic sensibilities and I think a knowledge of food & drink is part of that. He'll probably want to teach the boys how to brew beer and enjoy a glass of good Scotch. I want my girls to know how to entertain guests in the home, and that includes pairing the right food with the right wine and knowing how to fix a few standard cocktails. Heaven forbid we go to dinner at their house one day and find that they don't know how to make their father a nice gin & tonic.

I'm sure my betrothed would want to educate the boys about the dangers of drinking immoderately and the importance of protecting women from stupid drunk guys. And I'd want to teach the girls how to drink like ladies. That way, when they go off to college, or wherever God puts them, they'll know how to behave instead of acquiring bad habits from the secular world.

[hyperdulia again]

I love the fact that you call HIM your "betrothed."

Edited October 15, 2007 by hyperdulia again