Justification By Faith Alone

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1715875' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:56 PM']It says sin is a lawlessness.....basically a rejection of Christ. Then it says Jesus came to take sins away and if we live in him we do not sin.

Of course when we sin, we reject Jesus so we are not living in him when we sin.[/quote]

Correct. I will add that, as a matter of clarification, God does not "take away" our salvation, nor can the Enemy (or anyone else) pluck us from his Hand. Nevertheless, we possess free will - really and truly - and therefore retain the ability to jump from his Hand. Salvation is a free gift; we must reach out, take hold of it, and never let go. If it is truly a gift then it may be cast aside. If it cannot be cast aside, then it is not a gift; it is a shackle, and defeats the very purpose for which the option of sin (and consequently, suffering) is allowed to exist: freedom.

We are saved at Baptism (normally by water, and extraordinarily by blood or by desire) and remain saved so long as we choose; when we deliberately reject God's Word (that is, the voice of Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church) we simultaneously reject our salvation, for salvation comes through none other than God's Word, Jesus Christ. The key word here is "deliberately".

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1715875' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:56 PM']It says sin is a lawlessness.....basically a rejection of Christ. Then it says Jesus came to take sins away and if we live in him we do not sin.

Of course when we sin, we reject Jesus so we are not living in him when we sin.[/quote]

[indent]And this is where your ‘faith’ stops ----that those who have known by Jesus Christ cannot be taken-out from Him.

John 10:27-30
7 [color="#FF0000"]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them , and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one[/color]."
NIV

It is said ‘[color="#FF0000"]no one can snatch them out of my hand …..no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand’[/color]. This word ‘no one can…’ is very clear to those who have faith that comes or revealed from Third Heaven that even their own self has no power to defeat the will of God that is already in their heart. Because, they have no will of their own except the will of God that is why Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 9:15-18

15 [color="#FF0000"]But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 16 Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.[/color]
NIV

He said’ [color="#FF0000"]…for I am compelled to preach’ [/color]

Do I mean then, you have to ‘claim’ that you are already ‘pure’ just because you believe that Jesus knows you? That is not what I am driving at. But I want you to realize that they know (and that is not by faith) that they are ‘known by God’ as it is written by Apostle Paul in Gal 4:8-9

8 [color="#FF0000"]Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God — or rather are known by God — how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles?[/color]NIV[/indent]

[indent]The question is - How a man will know that he is known by God? (Take note: knowing is different from believing). [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715912' date='Dec 1 2008, 04:28 PM']Correct. I will add that, as a matter of clarification, God does not "take away" our salvation, nor can the Enemy (or anyone else) pluck us from his Hand. Nevertheless, we possess free will - really and truly - and therefore retain the ability to jump from his Hand. Salvation is a free gift; we must reach out, take hold of it, and never let go. If it is truly a gift then it may be cast aside. If it cannot be cast aside, then it is not a gift; it is a shackle, and defeats the very purpose for which the option of sin (and consequently, suffering) is allowed to exist: freedom.

We are saved at Baptism (normally by water, and extraordinarily by blood or by desire) and remain saved so long as we choose; when we deliberately reject God's Word (that is, the voice of Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church) we simultaneously reject our salvation, for salvation comes through none other than God's Word, Jesus Christ. The key word here is "deliberately".[/quote]

[indent]You said [color="#0000FF"]'God does not "take away" our salvation, nor can the Enemy (or anyone else) pluck us from his Hand' except you yourself because you can decide whether to continue believing in Him or not'[/color][/indent]...

[indent]Therefore the word 'no one can snatch ....John 10:27 is not true because you can 'snatch-out' yourself from Jesus' and his father's hand.[/indent]

[Guest nvzbl]

[quote name='reyb' post='1716033' date='Dec 1 2008, 06:27 PM'][indent]
He said’ [color="#FF0000"]…for I am compelled to preach’ [/color][/quote]

Lol. Its what we all do best...is, 'Preach!'

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='reyb' post='1716034' date='Dec 1 2008, 07:34 PM'][indent]You said [color="#0000FF"]'God does not "take away" our salvation, nor can the Enemy (or anyone else) pluck us from his Hand' except you yourself because you can decide whether to continue believing in Him or not'[/color][/indent]...

[indent]Therefore the word 'no one can snatch ....John 10:27 is not true because you can 'snatch-out' yourself from Jesus' and his father's hand.[/indent][/quote]


That is absolutely absurd. If I give you a box and tell you that nobody can take that box away from you (let's say that the box detects your touch and would shock anyone besides you), does that mean I am a liar when YOU throw the box away? That's like saying that a person that gives a gift did not actually give it because the recipient retained the ability to give it back. I simply cannot wrap my head around such an outlandish interpretation of such a simple statement.

Things you have failed to do:

*answer for the fact that Christ highlights works as the deciding factor in every judgment scenario
* re: post #46; you actually concede the point (thus refuting sola fide) and then divert attention by bringing up something else
* answering either the scriptures (e.g., Hebrews 6:4, James 2:24) or the logic of the concluding paragraph in post #50, which responded to your diversion tactic
* dealing with post #55; you dodge it entirely and don't even make a point or otherwise indicate the purpose of quoting the next verses.

What is especially funny is that if I were to reference explicit scriptural defenses of Catholic doctrines (say John 6 and the Last Supper narratives), you would bend over backwards to avoid the clear teaching referenced. I can see it now... [i]"Well, Ziggamafu, by 'this IS my blood' what Christ means to say is 'this is NOT my blood' - it all depends on what the definition of 'is' is..."
[/i]

Anyway, further disputes over the scriptures authored, discerned, compiled, declared, and organized by the Catholic Church would miss the heart of the matter: authority. We obviously have different interpretations of the Catholic Scriptures. Why not just talk about authority?

I know why I believe the Bible is infallible and my logic is both valid and consistent. I would like to examine your reasoning for the same belief (I am presuming you are Protestant; if I am wrong, feel free to correct me).

Protestantism makes the assertion that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith for the Christian (that is, the only authority guaranteed to be free from error in doctrinal and moral statements and the only source of God's revelation). As a result, individual Protestants can interpret the Bible and form for themselves the faith that they see depicted there. And, since everyone is fallible in the Protestant view, no person or group holds a "final say", so to speak, on the interpretation of the Bible.

Since you hold the assertion here, I would like you to write a little something on the topic:

"Sola Scriptura"

Now there are two points here that I would love to read your thoughts on.

1. "Sola" - Can you please provide one, single passage that clearly states that the SCRIPTURES (that it God's WRITTEN Word) [b]ALONE[/b] are a Christian's infallible authority? Even one passage? Remember, we're looking for a scriptural proof of SOLA Scriptura. Passages that merely indicate the Scripture's profitability for teaching or passages that merely highlight the Scripture's inerrancy or divine inspiration most certainly will not suffice - we all agree on that. We're looking for just one scripture that says something to the effect that *SCRIPTURE* * *ALONE* is infallible. No specific formula of words / terms must be employed here; only that the passage CLEARLY refers to [i]a) [/i]Scripture[i] b) [/i]ALONE being [i]c)[/i] infallible

2. "Scriptura" - Can you please point out where the Bible's divinely inspired table of contents is? And by what scriptural standard I should accept that book, if there is one, which has the table of contents? Without circular reasoning? By what objective authority do you discern the Scriptures to be infallible without question begging or circular reasoning?

If Sola Scriptura falls, so too does Protestantism, which bases its protests specifically on this man-made doctrine so recently invented. Then perhaps you can examine the Catholic assertion of an infallible Church with a bit more of an open mind.

[Guest]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1716060' date='Dec 1 2008, 08:27 PM']Anyway, further disputes over the scriptures authored, discerned, compiled, declared, and organized by the Catholic Church would miss the heart of the matter: authority. We obviously have different interpretations of the Catholic Scriptures. Why not just talk about authority?

I know why I believe the Bible is infallible and my logic is both valid and consistent. I would like to examine your reasoning for the same belief (I am presuming you are Protestant; if I am wrong, feel free to correct me).

Protestantism makes the assertion that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith for the Christian (that is, the only authority guaranteed to be free from error in doctrinal and moral statements and the only source of God's revelation). As a result, individual Protestants can interpret the Bible and form for themselves the faith that they see depicted there. And, since everyone is fallible in the Protestant view, no person or group holds a "final say", so to speak, on the interpretation of the Bible.

Since you hold the assertion here, I would like you to write a little something on the topic:

"Sola Scriptura"

Now there are two points here that I would love to read your thoughts on.

1. "Sola" - Can you please provide one, single passage that clearly states that the SCRIPTURES (that it God's WRITTEN Word) [b]ALONE[/b] are a Christian's infallible authority? Even one passage? Remember, we're looking for a scriptural proof of SOLA Scriptura. Passages that merely indicate the Scripture's profitability for teaching or passages that merely highlight the Scripture's inerrancy or divine inspiration most certainly will not suffice - we all agree on that. We're looking for just one scripture that says something to the effect that *SCRIPTURE* * *ALONE* is infallible. No specific formula of words / terms must be employed here; only that the passage CLEARLY refers to [i]a) [/i]Scripture[i] b) [/i]ALONE being [i]c)[/i] infallible

2. "Scriptura" - Can you please point out where the Bible's divinely inspired table of contents is? And by what scriptural standard I should accept that book, if there is one, which has the table of contents? Without circular reasoning? By what objective authority do you discern the Scriptures to be infallible without question begging or circular reasoning?

If Sola Scriptura falls, so too does Protestantism, which bases its protests specifically on this man-made doctrine so recently invented. Then perhaps you can examine the Catholic assertion of an infallible Church with a bit more of an open mind.[/quote]


very nice
i struggled with this sola scripture thing for forever and am still suffering the effects from it.

[Guest nvzbl]

Catholic or Protestestant. All sinners. All human. All Gods Children. Can't we all just get along??

[Guest]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1716134' date='Dec 1 2008, 10:03 PM']Catholic or Protestestant. All sinners. All human. All Gods Children. Can't we all just get along??[/quote]

problem is prostestants are getting people in trouble with their saved by faith alone nonsence. esspially people who were catholic then fell away. its almost like they are preaching another jesus. paul actually talks about that in the new testement. interesting stuff.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Guest

[Guest nvzbl]

I know. I talking about everyone preaching the same Jesus.

[Guest nvzbl]

With God all things are possible.

[Guest nvzbl]

Catholics feel protestants are wrong. Protestants feel Catholics are wrong. What is The Truth?
God is The Truth. That's why I believe in everything.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']I am not afraid of this doctrine (then again I don't consider myself a catholic) - that I am loved and saved by God's grace and His faith in me is what lets me rest easy at night - rather than constantly thinking "have I gone to confession enough?, have I said enough Divine Mercy chaplets? Have I said enough Hail Mary's, have I said enough prayers with 300 days indulgence?" - Thank God I'm out of that routine [/quote]

I don't know anyone, Catholic or not, who believes that saying enough Hail Marys, Divine Mercy CHaplets or going to confession "enough" (which isn't really an issue, there aren't a certain number of times you have to go will save them. If anyone you know who is Catholic does this, please direct them to a priest, who will inform them that this is not the teaching of the Church. I know it isn't easy to understand everything, I don't understand it all myself, but I know the things you mentioned are not what gets anyone to heaven. Though they might help increase your faith and good works!

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']What I believe, and how I understand the Bible (and I am not an expert) is that GOD is[/quote]

My understanding is that works justify your faith. It isn't that your works justify YOU as a person, they prove that your faith is real.

Yet, though this is a free gift (cause we can never earn it or merit it) we should receive it with [[b]b][/b]LIVING[/b] faith - not a dead faith.
A "living" faith is faith in God - faith is not just believing - it is trusting - and living faith flows over into our actions. Namely how can you tell if someone is of God or not - judge them by their [b]fruit[/b]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']A "dead" faith does not save you - and many ppl have a dead faith ... lots of big prayers, lots of bible quoting, lots of feeling holier than others, lots of praising themselves "thank God I'm not like that person ... im humble, i'm holy" - whatever
I think a faith like that is a sin against God - a sin against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven???? (anyone know if thats true or not?)[/quote]

True, pride and arrogance is a sin. As I understand it, the only "unforgivable sin", that is, the sin against the Holy Spirit, is doubting God's ability to save you and thereby rejecting salvation.

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']I think that's what St James was addressing - there were many ppl with a "dead" faith that began and ended with their words[/quote]

Could very well be. AndSt. Paul said "Faith Without Works is Dead" (Romans somewhere, I think, can't remember Ch)

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']The faith God desires, and St Paul was writing about (i think) - is [b]living [/b]faith, that begins with a [i]word[/i], transforms the [i]heart[/i] and bears much [i]fruit[/i][/quote]

Pretty much agree here although I think faith starts with more than a word.
-Katie

[Guest nvzbl]

Its kinda like the divine trinity. Faith and works go hand in hand. That's always been my understanding. Without 'faith,' 'works' would not follow. And you cannot have 'works' without 'faith.' My works come from my faith. You cannot have works without faith and faith without works. Either way, be saved! As long as you know that Christ has came to save you, you are saved.

[Guest nvzbl]

...that kinda rhymes too!)

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='nvzbl' post='1716218' date='Dec 1 2008, 10:46 PM']...that kinda rhymes too!)[/quote]