Justification By Faith Alone

[Ziggamafu]

The funny thing about sola fide is that all Prots violate it in practice (no pun intended); they all inform you that you have to do something to be saved: [i]say a prayer[/i] that, depending on the denomination, involves a formula of various doctrines. That is a work. A good work. And without that work, no Protestant (that I know) would say you are "saved".

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715730' date='Dec 1 2008, 07:02 AM']The funny thing about sola fide is that all Prots violate it in practice (no pun intended); they all inform you that you have to do something to be saved: [i]say a prayer[/i] that, depending on the denomination, involves a formula of various doctrines. That is a work. A good work. And without that work, no Protestant (that I know) would say you are "saved".[/quote]

[indent]You are correct.
But why these servants who did what was told to them, will say 'We are unworthy'?[/indent]

Edited December 1, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1715726' date='Dec 1 2008, 05:51 AM'][indent]
[color="#0000FF"][b]My[/b] [/color]question is – In the above parable or whatever, why then these servants who have done their duty will say ‘We are unworthy servants’?[/indent][/quote]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715730' date='Dec 1 2008, 07:02 AM']The funny thing about sola fide is that all Prots violate it in practice (no pun intended); they all inform you that you have to do something to be saved: [i]say a prayer[/i] that, depending on the denomination, involves a formula of various doctrines. That is a work. A good work. And without that work, no Protestant (that I know) would say you are "saved".[/quote]
[indent]Even your willingness to believe in any belief is already a ‘work’ by itself because, it is you who will decide whether you will believe it or not.

Again, why these servants will say 'We are unworthy' after they have done what was told to them?
[/indent]

Edited December 1, 2008 by reyb

[Ziggamafu]

I believe you are referring to Luke 17:7-10, which does not refer to justification or the judgment, but rather refers to the proper attitude of obedience; not an attitude of presumption, obeying for the good things given in return, but of respect obeying out of love of an awesome God.

The more proper correlated texts to reference in this thread would be any one of Jesus Christ's exhortations on the Judgment. Each and every single one of them specifically and clearly states that works are what separate the Hell-bound from the Heaven-bound. Whenever our Lord talks about the Judgment, he always tells us that it is only those that do good works are going to Heaven. He even explicitly references believers who are refused Heaven for not obeying the new Law:

[i]"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" -Matt 7:21-23[/i]

Notice that these are believers; they know and proclaim that Jesus is Lord incarnate (impossible for a nonbeliever according to Rom. 10:9 and 1 John 4:2) since they address Christ in the flesh as "Lord" repeatedly. Not only that, but in life they participated in and enjoyed the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit (cf Hebrews 6:4f) - even to the extreme of working miracles and casting out demons in Christ's name! Yet why are they refused Heaven? They did not obey the Law of the New Covenant.

Let's also not forget that the Scriptures clearly state that "by works a man is justified and not by faith alone." This brings me to my final point: Protestants, to support the recently invented tradition of sola fide, interpret Jesus by Paul and interpret clear passages by less clear passages. This of course is exactly opposite of how Scripture should be interpreted. Not only does sola fide twist Scripture, but it gives primacy to Paul's words above those of Christ and primacy of less clear verses above the more explicit verses.

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='47788' date='Oct 27 2003, 12:53 PM']Sola Fide started with Luther and the Lutherans have seen the light and given it up. I posted this with a short commentary at Joolye's thread, Do our differences really matter."

[color="purple"]"[indent]Together we confess: [b]By grace alone[/b], in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works[/indent]. "[/color]

This is an excerpt from the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification, signed in 1999 by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation, representing 94% of all the world's Lutherans.

Yippee! (Clicks heels and jumps in the air)

Ave Cor Mariae,
Katholikos[/quote]

[indent]Okay. Let us include this in our discussion.
With due respect to Katholikos...[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1715726' date='Dec 1 2008, 05:51 AM'][indent]
Luke 17:6-10

[color="#FF0000"]6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'" [/color]NIV [/indent][/quote]



[indent]Can you please explain further what do you mean by.....

I believe you are referring to Luke 17:7-10, which does not refer to justification or the judgment, [color="#0000FF"]but rather refers to the proper attitude of obedience; not an attitude of presumption, obeying for the good things given in return, but of respect obeying out of love of an awesome God.[/color][/indent]
[indent]Because I cannot see where you are heading. There is no mention re: kind of attitude in obeying his master or obeying for good things in return. ...But rather the attitude of the master was mentioned -to thank his servant.[/indent][indent]...But this is clear ' [color="#FF0000"]So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.[/color][/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715759' date='Dec 1 2008, 10:10 AM'][i]"[color="#FF0000"]Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' [b]And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness[/b]!'[/color]" -Matt 7:21-23[/i][/quote]

[indent]This is easy to understand but the problem is - How do you know that you are known by Him?[/indent]

[mortify]

Reyb,

You have to define what you mean by [b]faith[/b].

St Paul's understanding of it is broad, while St James' is narrow (thus the necessary qualifier about works)

Which are you referring to?

Edited December 1, 2008 by mortify

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='reyb' post='1715787' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:17 PM'][indent]This is easy to understand but the problem is - How do you know that you are known by Him?[/indent][/quote]



"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." - 1 John 2:3

[Ziggamafu]

Also see: [url="http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html"]http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html[/url], which I'm confident is in the Phatmass Defense Directory, along with a slew of other resources on this topic.

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1715803' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:40 PM']Reyb,

You have to define what you mean by [b]faith[/b].

St Paul's understanding of it is broad, while St James' is narrow (thus the necessary qualifier about works)[/quote]
[indent]Faith

— Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true. Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
------------------------[/indent][indent]And because you asked me what is faith. For me....

Faith is a power which shielded a wicked to see the light and a weakness of a righteous to remain in the dark. Because by faith man fails to realize that they are at lost while those who learn to judge themselves find the weakness of their faith.

But faith from above is different. It is a faith that was revealed at the end of my faith. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715824' date='Dec 1 2008, 11:55 AM']"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." - 1 John 2:3[/quote]
[indent]Correct. But How about this...
1 John 3:4-6[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 [b]No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him[/b][/color]. NIV[/indent]

[indent]What do you think about it?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1715832' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:14 PM']Also see: [url="http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html"]http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html[/url], which I'm confident is in the Phatmass Defense Directory, along with a slew of other resources on this topic.[/quote]
[indent]Okay. I will read it and then, we will discuss this. TY[/indent]

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='reyb' post='1715869' date='Dec 1 2008, 01:41 PM'][indent]Correct. But How about this...
1 John 3:4-6[/indent]
[indent][color="#FF0000"]4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 [b]No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him[/b][/color]. NIV[/indent]

[indent]What do you think about it?[/indent][/quote]

It says sin is a lawlessness.....basically a rejection of Christ. Then it says Jesus came to take sins away and if we live in him we do not sin.

Of course when we sin, we reject Jesus so we are not living in him when we sin.