Starets Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Well, first of all, justification is by Grace alone, not faith alone. Second, it is the reformed position that Justification and Sanctification are two separate things. That is not the Catholic position at all. The catholic position is that the two are inextricably intertwined into the same process of transformation in Christ. yes, the Bible verses you quote indicate a starting point, which you call "justification". To the calvinist, is an extrinsic declaration and nothing more; to the Catholic it is an intrinsic change that has a beginning and involves the expectation of growth through works of righeousness and obedience and can be lost through sin. There is the past completed action, but thats not all there is. The division between justification and sanctification does not appear to exist in the biblical text. The very verse that you quote, 1 Corinthians 6:11, itself equates the two: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God". I see no reason, biblical or otherwise, to separate sancitification from justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaHilarious Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402920' date='Oct 15 2007, 04:31 AM']1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ([b]not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God[/b],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: This is not speaking of justification! Rom 10:10 is the clearest of all scriptures against your assertion... Romans 10:10 For with the heart man [b]believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Justification happens in the heart.[/quote] Hmmm. So Peter saying "Baptism now saves" and Jesus saying in Mark 16 that salvation is for those who "believe and are baptized" isn't literal because it doesn't go with Calvin's interpretation of some other verses? You should realize how badly that damages your credibility that you constantly take verses which contradict Calvin and just say "that's not justification" again and again, as if you saying it is supposed to make it so. I'll ask again. [b]Where does your interpreting authority come from????[/b] Even Joseph Smith claimed a source of authority. I'm hearing no defense from you. PS - Still no response yet about how much of your argument is just cut and pasted from other websites? I guess you were hoping people would just forget about that? Edited October 15, 2007 by PapaHilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1402939' date='Oct 15 2007, 07:38 AM']Do you realise that you have just said "Right on!" to several paragraphs of pure Catholicism? GodChild's understanding of salvation is Catholic, even if she doesn't consider herself Catholic. To support her position, she quoted from the writing of St Therese of Lisieux - one of the few women to be distinguished with the title Doctor of the Church. You would do better to learn about Catholicism from the beginning. [/quote] You have not read the whole thread...the true Catholic doctrine makes justification a process. I did not see that in this posting. Justification is a legal declaration in Romans 3-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) [quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1402981' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:06 AM']Hmmm. So Peter saying "Baptism now saves" and Jesus saying in Mark 16 that salvation is for those who "believe and are baptized" isn't literal because it doesn't go with Calvin's interpretation of some other verses? You should realize how badly that damages your credibility that you constantly take verses which contradict Calvin and just say "that's not justification" again and again, as if you saying it is supposed to make it so. I'll ask again. [b]Where does your interpreting authority come from????[/b] Even Joseph Smith claimed a source of authority. I'm hearing no defense from you. PS - Still no response yet about how much of your argument is just cut and pasted from other websites? I guess you were hoping people would just forget about that? [/quote] What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession... Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved. None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation. Edited October 15, 2007 by OneForTruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='Staretz' post='1402963' date='Oct 15 2007, 09:20 AM']I see no reason, biblical or otherwise, to separate sancitification from justification.[/quote] You are mixing justification with [b]progressive sanctification [/b]and not that positional sanctification that takes place at salvation (an event when when dies to the law and to sin). This is where justification and sanctification are together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403021' date='Oct 15 2007, 12:47 PM']You are mixing justification with [b]progressive sanctification [/b]and not that positional sanctification that takes place at salvation (an event when when dies to the law and to sin). This is where justification and sanctification are together.[/quote] It's a seamless garment. justification and sanctification are together at all points. the terms are complementary synonyms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaHilarious Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403020' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:45 AM']What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession... Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved. None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation.[/quote] As Catholic Anonymous has already pointed out, the more you try to reword your position now, the more you end up agreeing with Catholic teaching. If you're now agreeing that baptism is necessary (your words: "those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved") then you've changed the original Reformist doctrine of "faith alone." PS - It's good to know that only in the [i]other[/i] thread you were cutting and pasting old pieces of conversations instead of actually trying to have a dialogue. Why we should trust you in your claim that you haven't done it in this thread, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaHilarious Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403020' date='Oct 15 2007, 10:45 AM']What you fail to realize is that Jesus did NOT say that baptsim was the BASIS for justification or the means of it. Justification comes by faith...Rom 10:10 is clear that it is a matter of the heart before any outward confession... Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. I have already agreed with someone here that those who WILL NOT get baptized are not saved. None of it is cut and pasted (in this thread) - do not make false accusation.[/quote] PPS - [b]Still no desire to respond to how your interpretation has any more authority than that of JWs, the LDS church, Orthdox churches, or 30,000 other Protestant denominations?[/b] Should you wish to admit that Calvin has no more authority than any other Christian who wants to pick up and interpret the Bible, you would not be admitting some kind of defeat, just so you are aware. There are many Calvinists (one of my best friends, in fact, falls into this category) who hold to all the doctrines you do, but do not launch antagonizing threads and try to tell other Christians that their interpretations are [i]clearly[/i] wrong. But then, where would be the fun of wanting to discuss views as equals and without judging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 If you are justified by just your faith then why do you need churches, The Bible, prayer, or even baptism? Regardless, whether baptism to certain denominations believe that baptism is just a symbol and has no innate ability or not, it's still not necessary for those whom believe that they are justified by their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Dusk Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Why is it such a big debate? People are going to believe what they want about salvation, playing wordsearch with the Bible isn't going to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1403035' date='Oct 15 2007, 12:33 PM']Why is it such a big debate? People are going to believe what they want about salvation, playing wordsearch with the Bible isn't going to help.[/quote] I am sorry for posting on this site - I will no longer post on Catholic sites anymore to avoid sin. I will go into the world and preach the gospel and bring the elect to Christ through planting and watering. I apologize for my postings and disputes. In Christ, Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaHilarious Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1403061' date='Oct 15 2007, 02:05 PM']I am sorry for posting on this site - I will no longer post on Catholic sites anymore to avoid sin.[/quote] So does this mean you'll never answer my question about authority to interpret? [quote]PPS - Still no desire to respond to how your interpretation has any more authority than that of JWs, the LDS church, Orthdox churches, or 30,000 other Protestant denominations?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 evidently not but at least this time my irascibility didn't get in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 OneForTruth, A legal declaration of justification is not all there is to the matter. That much is clear from the Scriptures. My thesis was on this topic, but since I've been away on a trip, I'm not going to enter the debate at this point (unless you wish to dialogue privately with me), other than to post a link to my thesis, which is a basic overview of the Catholic dogma of justification (the first half of the thesis, anyway, after which it segways into the second half of my double thesis, which is a related, but separate matter). [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=73748&view=findpost&p=1403219"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1403219[/url] God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 (edited) [indent]With due respect to OneForTruth and other phatmasser who posted on this thread…excuse me. In the other thread ‘Purgatory: Who believes it anyway’ the issue about justification by faith (alone) and justification by faith with works was touched. Hence, I posted it here for our discussion. And since we are talking about faith, let us discuss Luke 17:6-10 Luke 17:6-10 [color="#FF0000"]6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'" [/color]NIV May question is – In the above parable or whatever, why then these servants who have done their duty will say ‘We are unworthy servants’?[/indent] Edited December 1, 2008 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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