Justification By Faith Alone

[White Knight]

Justification has many Scared Scripture References that lean to many conclusions, however, if we dont look at how all the end meets something can be misunderstood. First of all we are Saved by Grace, through Faith, we receive the Grace, and through the Grace and Faith, our good works are blessed and show our justification.


Unfortunately It would take awhile to display the whole bibical evidence for the whole, Salvation and Justification issue, You cannot just look at one particular verse, paragraph, chapter, or whatever, you must look at the entire cannon of the Sacred Scripture, Both Old & New Testments in order to understand the whole story from the clearest prespective that our minds can handle with.


[size=4][b]Basically in my older days of being a Born Again Christian, I remember reading scriptures in the Old and New Testments on Justification and Salvation, however, I have not kept them into memory. But if you want to prove to yourself the whole issue of Justification and Salvation and settle it, I'd encourage you to read as much of Scripture as you can, old and new testments to get the broader prespective of what Cannon is saying, and dont take it out of context, Ya you can preach and quote Scripture all ya want to to another person, but ultimately its the persons' choice to investigate this issue in the deeper prespective. Quoting or not quoting isn't always going to cut it. Sometimes in order to change hearts and minds of the person they have to want to be willing.


I'd strongly advise anyone who has some Bible knowledge to get your tablet of contents, to look up what the Scriptures have to say about Salvation and Justification.[/b][/size]

Edited October 14, 2007 by White Knight

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1401979' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:30 PM']all he's got to do is admit it's not clear. if he admitted that, thatwouldn't mean his position on the specific matter of faith and works is wrong though.[/quote]

Dairy,

Good observation. Many Protestants do admit precisely that: saying there is no "clear" interpretation of Scripture, in the sense that anyone can just pick it up and be an instant scholar. This is not the conversation of this thread, however.

When trying to convince Catholics of the supposed error of their ways, there are some Protestants that preach a sort of [i]obvious-to-any-true-believer[/i] interpretation of the Word that conveniently labels anyone who does not agree with them as not a true believer.

[quote]i think both him and you all need to be sure to realize that.[/quote]

Why you don't think I realize this, is a mystery, particularly as I was Protestant for over 20 years. What becomes an issue for Reformist doctrines, however, and something I had to deal with myself, is what happened to the authority Jesus left us? Matthew 18:15-8, for example, spells out that Jesus intended for the Church to be able to settle disputes. As evidenced by 30,000 denominations, there is no such ability in Protestantism today.

[Farsight one]

I'm sorry, but I have to point this out:

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:18 PM']Thank God I'm out of that routine[/quote]
[quote]"thank God I'm not like that person..."[/quote]

I can't help but see this as unintentionally arguing against yourself.

[GodChild]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1402211' date='Oct 14 2007, 07:36 PM']I'm sorry, but I have to point this out:
I can't help but see this as unintentionally arguing against yourself. [/quote]

How so?

I am glad I am out of that routine - it was suffocating because we cannot save ourselves by our actions alone and that's what I was trying to do

furthermore - I never made a claim I am better than others - I wrote those words in "commas" as the attitudes ppl adopt - that characterizes a dead faith

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401924' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:18 PM']I am not afraid of this doctrine (then again I don't consider myself a catholic) - that I am loved and saved by God's grace and His faith in me is what lets me rest easy at night - rather than constantly thinking "have I gone to confession enough?, have I said enough Divine Mercy chaplets? Have I said enough Hail Mary's, have I said enough prayers with 300 days indulgence?" - Thank God I'm out of that routine

What I believe, and how I understand the Bible (and I am not an expert) is that GOD is my justification. I pray in the words of St Therese - God, when I die I take YOU as my sanctity, my justice, my glory

Yet, though this is a free gift (cause we can never earn it or merit it) we should receive it with [[b]b][/b]LIVING[/b] faith - not a dead faith.
A "living" faith is faith in God - faith is not just believing - it is trusting - and living faith flows over into our actions. Namely how can you tell if someone is of God or not - judge them by their [b]fruit[/b]

A "dead" faith does not save you - and many ppl have a dead faith ... lots of big prayers, lots of bible quoting, lots of feeling holier than others, lots of praising themselves "thank God I'm not like that person ... im humble, i'm holy" - whatever
I think a faith like that is a sin against God - a sin against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven???? (anyone know if thats true or not?)

I think that's what St James was addressing - there were many ppl with a "dead" faith that began and ended with their words

The faith God desires, and St Paul was writing about (i think) - is [b]living [/b]faith, that begins with a [i]word[/i], transforms the [i]heart[/i] and bears much [i]fruit[/i]

thats my 2c[/quote]

Right on!!

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='mortify' post='1401925' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:25 PM']Justification is a past event in the sense that we were justified when we were baptized, but it's really an ongoing "process," not in the sense that we are working towards receiving justification, but in the sense that we must continually cooperate with the Holy Spirit to foster and protect the justified state we received.[/quote]

We are justified by faith - not by baptism...

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We receive the righteousness of Christ and the death of Christ at the hearing of faith.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1401928' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:33 PM']I would say the answer is "yes" in that they are two aspects of the same thing. Not seeing that is how James can be an "Epistle of Straw"[/quote]

Justification in Romans is a declaration of one to be righteous. The justification of James 2 is of the faith - proving that it is real by the seeing of fruit.

James 2:14 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [b]that faith [/b]save him?

Is the faith dead or living - that is the question of James 2.

[mortify]

If a person refuses baptism they have no faith.

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402520' date='Oct 14 2007, 08:12 PM']We are justified by faith - not by baptism...

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We receive the righteousness of Christ and the death of Christ at the hearing of faith.[/quote]
1Peter 3:19-22 "Baptism now saves you"
Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5.What now?

[hyperdulia again]

I repeat:

I must admit I didn't read your scripture quotes. If we properly understand the meanings of the word faith and justification, Catholic Christians have no problem giving assent to justification by faith alone. If faith is understood as inseparable from holiness of life, then yes I can stand with my Protestant brothers and sisters and the whole of Christian Tradition and say yes Faith working through grace will save/is saving/has saved me.

[Starets]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402523' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:14 PM']Justification in Romans is a declaration of one to be righteous. The justification of James 2 is of the faith - proving that it is real by the seeing of fruit.

James 2:14 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [b]that faith [/b]save him?

Is the faith dead or living - that is the question of James 2.[/quote]
Justification, both in Romans and elsewhere, is not just a past completed act or a declaration. It is also the ongoing outworking of righteousness in the believer. They are part and parcel of the same process of transformation into the image and likeness of God.

In 2 Corintians 7:1 as well as Hebrews 12:10 and 14, Christians are urged to strive for sanctity, holiness, and discipline. That too is the process of justification/sanctification. St. Paul also warns believers not to fall into old sinful lives, in such places as 1 Corinthians 6 and Galations 5. That can reduce our justification to the point of losing our salvation. So much for OSAS and the I and P of the TULIP!

Since justification is both a completed action and an ongoing process, then the justification of which St. Paul speaks is the same as the justification of which St. James speaks.

The "apples and oranges" here isnt justification, it's works. When St. Paul contrasts "faith" and "Works", the "works" of which St Paul speaks are the works of the mosaic law; when St. James makes that same contrast, the works of which St James speaks are the works of Christian obedience.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1402610' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:18 PM']1Peter 3:19-22 "Baptism now saves you"
Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5.What now?[/quote]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ([b]not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God[/b],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is not speaking of justification! Rom 10:10 is the clearest of all scriptures against your assertion...

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man [b]believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Justification happens in the heart.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='mortify' post='1402550' date='Oct 14 2007, 08:33 PM']If a person refuses baptism they have no faith.[/quote]

I will not disagree with that...that does not go against Rom 5:1 - that we are justified by faith.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1402628' date='Oct 14 2007, 09:37 PM']Justification, both in Romans and elsewhere, is not just a past completed act or a declaration. It is also the ongoing outworking of righteousness in the believer. They are part and parcel of the same process of transformation into the image and likeness of God.

In 2 Corintians 7:1 as well as Hebrews 12:10 and 14, Christians are urged to strive for sanctity, holiness, and discipline. That too is the process of justification/sanctification. St. Paul also warns believers not to fall into old sinful lives, in such places as 1 Corinthians 6 and Galations 5. That can reduce our justification to the point of losing our salvation. So much for OSAS and the I and P of the TULIP!

Since justification is both a completed action and an ongoing process, then the justification of which St. Paul speaks is the same as the justification of which St. James speaks.

The "apples and oranges" here isnt justification, it's works. When St. Paul contrasts "faith" and "Works", the "works" of which St Paul speaks are the works of the mosaic law; when St. James makes that same contrast, the works of which St James speaks are the works of Christian obedience.[/quote]

You are mxing the two without scriptural basis...your basis is only for sanctification which has its foundation...justifcation. Justification stands as a foundation - it is an event in the past.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It ultimately will lead to glorification...

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these [b]whom He justified, He also glorified[/b].

I am not saying that justification may or may not be follwed by sanctification...I am saying that justification is on the basis of faith alone and it is what is at the beginning of the Christian life as an event.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1402517' date='Oct 15 2007, 03:10 AM']Right on!![/quote]

Do you realise that you have just said "Right on!" to several paragraphs of pure Catholicism? GodChild's understanding of salvation is Catholic, even if she doesn't consider herself Catholic. To support her position, she quoted from the writing of St Therese of Lisieux - one of the few women to be distinguished with the title Doctor of the Church.

You would do better to learn about Catholicism from the beginning.