Justification By Faith Alone

[bonkers]

[quote name='reyb' post='1727029' date='Dec 13 2008, 12:56 PM'][indent]Before, we go to a much further discussion regarding your flow chart or whatever. Let us concentrate on this issue. Jesus Christ is the founder of your Church. Okay? Is it just a belief or it is the truth? [/indent][/quote]

Both

[reyb]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1727030' date='Dec 13 2008, 12:59 PM']Both[/quote]
[indent]By faith everything seems to be true to a faithful believer but it does not follow that whatever he believe and put his faith is true in its real meaning of Truth. Therefore, we must know if we put our faith to the truth, otherwise we will find ourselves believing a lie. Is it okay?

So the answer is ‘Both’. Ziggamafu, do you agree with that?[/indent]

[Ziggamafu]

It is an historical truth.

That is, starting from the premise that the New Testament documents - like many other ancient documents of Christianity - are at least historically reliable, then according to the historic record Christ founded one, organized, authoritative Church under the Apostles and led by Peter, to whom alone Christ entrusted the keys.

For further info, see: [url="http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/reign_a_throne_established_forever"]He Must Reign; Free Online Theology Course[/url]

Here is a selection from lesson three of this course:
[quote]The Key of David

The Light to the Nations

The Church is the fulfillment of the kingdom promised to Israel. This is again stressed in Revelation's final pages.

John sees a vision of the new Jerusalem, the new capital of the new kingdom. The city gates are inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and the foundation stones are inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles (see Revelation 21:9-13).

The depiction of the kingdom as a temple is similar to the depiction of the Church as a spiritual temple (see 1 Peter 2:5).

Israel was commissioned to be a light to the nations (see Isaiah 42:6; 49:6). The new Israel, the kingdom of the Church, fulfills that commission. As John sees it, the new Jerusalem is illuminated by the glory of God and enlightens the entire world, its light brighter than the sun and the moon. "The nations will walk by its light" and kings of the earth stream toward the light, bringing the wealth of nations to pay tribute (see Revelation 21:22-27).

John here is evoking the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the new exodus and the restoration of the Davidic kingdom. Isaiah had prophecied that God would one day be an "everlasting light" brighter than the sun and moon (see Isaiah 60:19) and that nations would come to the light bearing their wealth (see Isaiah 60:3,5).

Isaiah foretold that the gates of the kingdom would be open to people of all nations - a promise that John likewise sees delivered in the kingdom of the Church (compare Isaiah 60:11; Revelation 21:25-26).

Isaiah also foretold that authority ("the key") over the Davidic kingdom would be turned over to a new royal minister (see Isaiah 22:22).

Christ applied this prophecy to the apostle Peter, and interpreted the "keys to the kingdom" to mean authority in what He called "my Church" (see Matthew 16:18-19).

We see the same identification of kingdom and Church in Revelation, which also offers an interpretation of Isaiah's prophecy concerning the keys. Jesus is described as the "offspring of David" (see Revelation 22:16) and as "the holy one . . . who holds the key of David" (see Revelation 3:7).[/quote]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727044' date='Dec 13 2008, 02:16 PM']It is an historical truth.

That is, starting from the premise that the New Testament documents - like many other ancient documents of Christianity - are at least historically reliable, then according to the historic record Christ founded one, organized, authoritative Church under the Apostles and led by Peter, to whom alone Christ entrusted the keys.[/quote]

[indent]I thought you want to explain it to me point by point. And I am willing to listen but of course, I will ask questions because I want to know if you are telling the truth or you are just telling me a belief without proper basis other than faith.[/indent]

[indent]Is It a historical truth that Jesus Christ established the Roman Catholic Church?[/indent]

[Ziggamafu]

Yes. What left you confused about the following quote?

[quote]It is an historical truth.[/quote]

What was unclear there? I'm concerned.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727073' date='Dec 13 2008, 02:37 PM']Yes. What left you confused about the following quote?



What was unclear there? I'm concerned.[/quote]
[indent]I am not confuse. I just want to know if we are at the same page while we are discussing.

I heard this is the basis of your Church. it is written in Matt 16:18 [color="#FF0000"]And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. [/color]

Is it okay?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727073' date='Dec 13 2008, 02:37 PM']Yes. What left you confused about the following quote?



What was unclear there? I'm concerned.[/quote]

[indent]Since your Church, as you say, was founded by Jesus Christ and it is a historical reality, it only follows that there must be a historical Jesus walked in the world. I used the term ‘historical Jesus’ because many Christians including you and your early Church father said this Jesus come in the flesh more or less 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. Otherwise, if there is no historical Jesus then whatever your Church claims in this respect is just a belief. Okay?

Who told you that these witnesses including Apostle Paul are referring to this historical Jesus?

Nevertheless, let us take some verses in the Scripture and let us see if this Jesus is the historical Jesus.

Matt 27:45-54

[indent][color="#FF0000"]45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God, my God , why have you forsaken me?"

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"
NIV[/indent][/color]Are you ready because I will ask some questions regarding these verses.[/indent]

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='reyb' post='1727075' date='Dec 13 2008, 02:44 PM'][indent]I am not confuse. I just want to know if we are at the same page while we are discussing.

I heard this is the basis of your Church. it is written in Matt 16:18 [color="#FF0000"]And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. [/color]

Is it okay?[/indent][/quote]

In part. We see the entire Old Testament pointing to and illuminating the Catholic Church and we see the entire New Testament revealing and glorifying the Catholic Church; the Body of Christ. But as far as specific passages go, yes, we would consider that to be among the most important. Just remember that we do not adhere to sola scriptura. If the Scriptures were as silent about the papacy as they are about the Assumption of Mary we wuld still believe it on the basis of Sacred Tradition and dogma. Pleasantly, however, the role of Peter's office is spelled out with a fair amount of clarity in the Bible. And speaking of which, part of that clarity rests on the portion of the scripture above that you negected to cite; that of Christ handing over the keys (Christ is the true "owner" of the keys - "keys" being a metaphore, obviously - and thus is the ultimate holder of them, but he nevertheless invests his key bearer with their authority in the restored Davidic Kingdom: the Catholic Church, the Kingdom of God, which progresses through time toward its perfection at the Eschaton).

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='reyb' post='1727083' date='Dec 13 2008, 03:06 PM'][indent]Since your Church, as you say, was founded by Jesus Christ and it is a historical reality, it only follows that there must be a historical Jesus walked in the world. I used the term ‘historical Jesus’ because many Christians including you and your early Church father said this Jesus come in the flesh more or less 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. Otherwise, if there is no historical Jesus then whatever your Church claims in this respect is just a belief. Okay?

Who told you that these witnesses including Apostle Paul are referring to this historical Jesus?

Nevertheless, let us take some verses in the Scripture and let us see if this Jesus is the historical Jesus.

Matt 27:45-54

[indent][color="#FF0000"]45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God, my God , why have you forsaken me?"

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"
NIV[/indent][/color]Are you ready because I will ask some questions regarding these verses.[/indent][/quote]

See Reyb, this is an example of how you seem to be all over the place. Narrow down your focus. Also, do please explain what your religious affiliation or persuasion is and what religion or denomination you feel you most line up with. I get the feeling that you are Bahai or something similar, where you feel free to pick and choose doctrines on the fly... I'm not sure, however. It would be beneficial if I knew more about your beliefs. Questioning the historicity of Christ seems a bit odd for you.

Please see my apologetics on the topic of Christ's historicity in one of my earlier posts, above.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727374' date='Dec 13 2008, 10:32 PM']In part. We see the entire Old Testament pointing to and illuminating the Catholic Church and we see the entire New Testament revealing and glorifying the Catholic Church; the Body of Christ. But as far as specific passages go, yes, we would consider that to be among the most important. Just remember that we do not adhere to sola scriptura. If the Scriptures were as silent about the papacy as they are about the Assumption of Mary we wuld still believe it on the basis of Sacred Tradition and dogma. Pleasantly, however, the role of Peter's office is spelled out with a fair amount of clarity in the Bible. And speaking of which, part of that clarity rests on the portion of the scripture above that you negected to cite; that of Christ handing over the keys (Christ is the true "owner" of the keys - "keys" being a metaphore, obviously - and thus is the ultimate holder of them, but he nevertheless invests his key bearer with their authority in the restored Davidic Kingdom: the Catholic Church, the Kingdom of God, which progresses through time toward its perfection at the Eschaton).[/quote]
[indent]As I told you, I will accept this belief to be true provided you can prove to me just one very important thing - the existence of your historical Jesus. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727407' date='Dec 13 2008, 11:09 PM']See Reyb, this is an example of how you seem to be all over the place. Narrow down your focus. Also, do please explain what your religious affiliation or persuasion is and what religion or denomination you feel you most line up with. I get the feeling that you are Bahai or something similar, where you feel free to pick and choose doctrines on the fly... I'm not sure, however. It would be beneficial if I knew more about your beliefs. Questioning the historicity of Christ seems a bit odd for you.

Please see my apologetics on the topic of Christ's historicity in one of my earlier posts, above.[/quote]
[indent]That is why, I posted the above verses. You can give any 'title' or call me in whatever ' name calling religion' you want. It is not important to me. But one thing I am sure - the holy Scripture is True. [/indent]

[indent]Again, I do not doubt the truthfulness of the Holy Scripture but I am questioning the truthfulness of your Church's interpretation to the Holy Scripture. Okay? Are you ready to discuss our subjet verse?.[/indent]

[Ziggamafu]

Quote from post #86:

[quote]4. Final objection: Jesus was either entirely mythical or mythological elements were added onto historical identity. In other words, the biblical accounts cannot be trusted.

At last, a plausible objection. The previous three made no sense because they did not fit the historical data. But this objection argues that the data has been falsified. And this is a true possibility. But almost anything is possible; is it probable? Is this objection even reasonable? To find out, we will examine and respond to each facet of the objection.

a.) Too much time passed before the documents were written to trust their accuracy.

Did enough time pass for myth to be accepted?

No.
The documents were written in the same generation that the events occurred.
Churches on the other side of the world were already well-organized by the time the documents were written.
Aramaic creeds and hymns from the original Jerusalem community of Christians are found in the documents
Any mythical element would have been contested by eye-witnesses who were still alive.

b.) Late additions and edits were made

Do the changes made to the documents over the course of their evolution compromise their reliability?
No. There are only a few edits and additions in the New Testament. None of them compromise the material presented to us either in the pre-existing Pauline creeds & hymns, or in the Gospels taken as a whole. Rather, the edits merely serve to smooth out the narratives and can be safely assumed to come from the same oral testimonies that spawned the writings in the first place.

c.) There are contradictions and errors in the New Testament.

There are two ways to respond to this and neither of them pose a problem to the faith:
1. “No there ain’t!” People in this camp do interpretational gymnastics in order to arrive at a possible harmonization or solution to any “alleged” problem in the texts. And they are successful. There is not one problem posed that this camp has not addressed in a plausible manner.
2. “So what if there are?” People in this camp find the prior camp’s explanations improbable. They argue that the little flaws and difficulties actually contribute to a greater reliability of the text. A diversity of testimonies, all telling the same basic story, might have oppositional or contradictory details, but this just demonstrates that the agreed upon story was not fabricated or rehearsed. In most cases, the problems are extremely minute. In the other cases, the problems are argued to be intentional, thereby conveying a deeper truth under inspiration. In no case is the Gospel itself compromised.

d.) The documents contain miracles, which are maximally improbable.

How we be expected to believe in impossible events?
This is not a real objection, nor is it an honest question; it is a statement. If you believe miracles are impossible, no amount of evidence will convince you that one has occurred. But since we’ve already demonstrated the reasonability of belief in God, we should have no problem discerning his supernatural interventions, if enough evidence supports them. There have been many such interventions documented throughout history, contrary to the claims of atheists. Several of them are very credible. Of course, to the atheist, since God does not exist, miracles are impossible from square one. For the theist, all that is required is an extraordinary level of credibility and a lack of any more reasonable explanations. And this is exactly what Christians argue for in the case of the Gospel.

e.) Parallels to Christ exist in other ancient myths and religions.

Isn’t it obvious that Christianity just mashed other religions together to produce a largely – if not entirely – fictional god-man?
No.
First, we already know that the Gospel goes back to the time of the original events. Not only would witnesses have objected, but nobody have a motive for joining yet another new religious cult.
Second, we have multiple accounts from multiple witnesses on the same events, all corroborating the same basic story.
Third, there is more textual evidence for the Gospels (that is, sheer volumes of ancient copies) than there is for any other person or event in ancient history.
Fourth, upon closer examination, many of the alleged parallels are in fact not as similar to the Gospels as skeptics would have us believe.
Fifth, although the “parallel” religions themselves pre-dated Christianity, our only records of parallels to the life of Christ in these religions are dated after Christianity had begun its rapid spread. In other words, it makes more sense to believe that the religions in question copied Christianity’s “recipe for success” than vice-versa.[/quote]

Four Little Proofs for the Christian Way
The Catholic Church Offers Peace, Courage, Joy, and Fulfillment

I. [b]God exists.[/b] This is proven not by science but by logic. Everything that exists is an effect (causing other effects throughout time and space). The “universe” is not a thing apart from all of these effects but is rather the name given to the collection of all of these effects. This vast chain of effects could not be eternal or else the current “link” (our present universe) would have never arrived. If infinity is not a conscious being – if there is not an eternal God that exists outside of and regardless of the time / space universe, where every effect needs a cause – then there would be no primal cause for the universe and the universe would not exist. But it does. Therefore, there is a God; an eternal, infinite, spiritual entity whose essence is absolute “being” and whose nature is cause.
Also noteworthy: God is the only adequate explanation for the absolute authority of one’s own conscience. “Ever since the creation of the world, [God’s] invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what He has made.” (Romans 1:20, cf. Isaiah 40:26, Job)

II. [b]The Christian religion offers the most reasonable understanding of God. [/b]What sets Christianity apart as the most reasonable choice among the world’s religions is three-fold:
First, logic corroborates Christ’s claim to be God. If not God, such claims would be evil or insane. But evil liars and mad men don’t live and die as Jesus and his Apostles did: brilliantly teaching on faith and love and selflessly accepting execution for their claims. The first Christians were willing to die brutal deaths for their testimony to the resurrection of Jesus Christ as historical fact. Christianity uniquely traces its roots, not just to a good philosophy or a faith, but to numerous reliable eyewitness testimonies to miraculous events in history. If Jesus and his first followers were not reasonably evil or mad and their claims were not myth, the only option left is that the claims are true: Jesus Christ is God.
Second, archeological and psychological discoveries continue to verify the history and teachings of the Church, and more so than in any other religion. Again we see a faith rooted in logic and history, not fantasy.
Third, Christianity has done more for healthcare, the arts, science, law, agriculture, charity, and society at large than any other group of people, secular or religious. No other religion has had such a profound impact.
Also noteworthy: Christian history is full of well-documented miracles (such as at Fatima in 1917). “We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty.” (2 Peter 1:16, cf. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19)

[b]III. The Catholic Church offers the most reasonable understanding of Christ.[/b] This is because the origins of all Christian history, authority, and theology lye in the Catholic Church. Furthermore, only the Catholic Church professes an infallible teaching authority over which a single leader governs while Christ sits at the Father’s Right Hand. Only the Catholic Church professes the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven; the ability to bind and loose on all Christians. Only the Catholic Church teaches with the voice of Christ, “as one having authority.” Thus, only the Catholic Church professes the means to proclaim what is heresy and what is dogmatic truth. Any other form of “Christianity” is divisive; subjective, individualistic, and relativistic by nature, like a nation with some governmental documents but no government to interpret and enforce them. The order and structure of Catholicism is therefore much more reasonable than Protestantism. Finally, the Catholic Church has contributed far more to civilization than any other Christian sect.
Also noteworthy: Whatever authority one discerns in the Bible one must also discern in the Catholic Church by which it was written, compiled, and organized. “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:17-19, cf. 18:15-18, Luke 22:25-32)

[b]IV. The only way to obtain unshakable peace, courage, joy, and fulfillment is to live the devout life[/b]; a life of full communion with the Catholic Church and sacrificial love. This is the Gospel: we may become Christ’s Body. If only we ably believe God’s promises and seek to receive him in his sacraments, not only are we saved from sin and death by Christ’s suffering, we may participate in that suffering as members of his Body, the Catholic Church. Only when we renounce ourselves, relinquishing all the pleasures of the world and all earthly attachments in favor of God’s will and love, do we experience true, perpetual freedom. The sacrifice of time, money, and bodily comforts makes one a participant in the redemption won by the suffering of Christ’s Body and brings lasting joy. We pray no harm befalls us, but we have no fear of strife. To look upon a crucifix and realize that one partakes in the agony of that Passion is the greatest glory awarded by God. Such faith brings hope to those who suffer and assigns purpose to that suffering.
Also noteworthy: The lives of the saints testify to the sublime perfection of the Catholic way. “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Colossians 1:24, cf. 1 Peter 2:19-24, 2 Corinthians 4:7)

[i]“[God] made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth…so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us…God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day on which he will ‘judge the world with justice’ through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.”
-Acts 17:24-31[/i]

[b]THE GOSPEL IS THIS:[/b] By the incarnation of God’s Eternal Word – that is, by the Conception & Life, Suffering & Death, Resurrection & Ascension of God’s only begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and by his Eucharistic Presence – God has made a visible covenant with us; that we may mystically enter into Christ’s Body and so share in Christ’s Divine Sonship (and redemptive suffering), which enables communion with God as our own Father (1 John 3:1) & empowers us to live a life free of sin and the worldly attachments that enslave us. Christ’s bodily resurrection is likewise our guarantee that we too, being members of his Body, will one day share in that glorious bodily resurrection. What’s more, by uniting us in One Body, God has given us a heavenly Family that is constantly available for love, support, and prayer (Heb. 12:1, 22-24; Rev. 5:8; cf. James 5:16). In Christ’s Body, we are even given his Blessed Mother Mary as our own mother (John 19:27 cf. Rev 12:17). God has also given us his Spirit to live in our hearts and grace us with many spiritual gifts to help us on our journey to Heaven. Finally, this covenant makes God’s grace and forgiveness constantly, conveniently, and assuredly available so that no one should endure the eternal penalties of sin (John 3:16-18).

If you believe in the Gospel and want to receive the benefits of God’s covenant as described here (freedom from sin and a new life, destined for eternal Heaven), you must be baptized. Baptism, which destroys all sin and all of your sin’s spiritual consequences (Titus 3:5), is the means by which one enters God’s covenant (Col. 2:11-12) and is reborn (John 3:5) into the Body of Christ; the Family of God, the Catholic Church. St. Paul tells us, “You [are] buried with [Christ] in baptism, in which you [are] also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col. 2:12). “If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim. 2:11-13). After baptism, you should be confirmed and then receive the Holy Eucharist as often as possible for empowerment to stay free from sin. Remember our Lord’s words: “I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you” (John 6:53). If you deliberately reject Christ or his Church by serious sin after baptism, you must confess to a priest in the sacrament of reconciliation to obtain forgiveness (John 20:23 cf. 2 Cor. 5:18). By receiving the sacraments and being in full communion with the Catholic Church, we receive Christ and abide in him. Therein is our salvation; our freedom.
Our Lord told his Apostles: “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). He tells them, “As the Father has sent me, so I send you…Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (John 20:21-23). Indeed, Christ told his Apostles that whatever they bound or loosed on Earth was likewise accomplished in Heaven (Matt. 18:18). This authority carried over into the successors whom the Apostles ordained in a chain that stretches right down to our own day and age. Therefore, we must trust and obey the teachings of the Catholic Church, who still follows the leadership of Peter’s successor (the pope), who alone holds the keys to the kingdom (Is. 22:22 cf. Matt. 16:19). “The Church,” St. Paul writes, “is the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). The Holy Spirit protects the interpretation, clarification, and growing understanding of God’s Word (Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition, cf. 2 Thess. 2:15) from all error (Matt. 13:31-32 cf. John 16:13).

Pray every day. Learn your Bible and your Catechism. Practice the virtues and works of mercy.

The more you give your life to God the more you will notice God’s life in you! + Amen.
[i]
“But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you…God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.”
-1 Peter 3:14-22[/i]

***

Reyb. Go to RCIA. Do you need help finding a good parish in your area?

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727578' date='Dec 14 2008, 08:06 AM']Quote from post #86:[/quote]
[indent]What is that? I do believe in God. So you do not need to remind me of it. Okay? I accept that the holy Scripture is Truth. Again, there is no problem between us in this subject. But one simple request and you do not want to listen. As I have said, we will go to whatever subject you want and I will accept whatever 'doctrine' you will say to me. But please let us discuss the 'reason' of all of your theology and that is - the existence of historical Jesus. Is it not logical to discuss the first step before we go to the next?

I am sure, we have no problem to discuss whatever about Jesus Christ using the Holy Scripture as our source of knowledge since we both accept its truthfulness. Is it Okay? [/indent]

Edited December 14, 2008 by reyb

[Ziggamafu]

You wanted a reason to believe in the historical Christ. I gave it to you. Multiple times.

Any scriptures you cite beg the question regarding my point; you cannot know what scripture is apart from the authority of the Catholic Church. In quoting scripture as authoritative, you presume the authority of the Church away from which you are so desparately running.

Please refer back to my posts on this irresolvable problem of yours. Also see the two charts I drew up for you.

You have two options:

1. Yield to the authority of the Church (and therefore everything else she teaches)

2. Decide that you have no basis for determining that the books of the Bible are any more authoritative than other texts; no basis by which to decide what does and does not belong in the canon.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Ziggamafu

[dairygirl4u2c]

how do we know it happened at the 300 year and other years or people were not correct? it's based on faith.
the spirit could have acted through the people infallibly at one point in time. ie when they put the bible together.
the catholic church is a more objective way of knowing it is true, if the catholic church is true.
but, really, ultimately, the catholic church is just one more peg on the chaiin of uncertainty.

how do we know the cc is true? bc it says it is? just as circuluar as anything. how do we know the cc is true, bc the bible says it is? it's effectively just as circular, especially since it's disputable whether the bible even says that.

someone could say that the bible is true, cause of jesus, just as fast as a catholic could say their system is true cause of him.

i admit it'd be more objective if the CC were true, but it's not for most intents and purposes a whole lot different than what protestants want.
maybe you think it is a whole lot different. it's justa difference of inherent judgment on the matter, in that case.
but even if it is a whole lot different, it's not the two options zigga just gave, it's not an either or situation. there's no disputing this...,. if you disagree, you're just wrong. even if it's an inherent judgment call on your part.
one option might appear more objective, but that's not all the options there are.

personally i don't think the bible is necessarily true. the bible doesn't even say it is, necessarily. it's inspired. am i a bad christian or going to hell for this?
i dont think so, but who knows.

it seems you guys are just stereotypes of your religion, arguing the party line. cookie cutters.
be a little more original, sheesh.

Edited December 14, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c