Justification By Faith Alone

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1725399' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:26 PM']Justification by faith. Works are a necessary component of faith. "Faith without works is dead."[/quote]
[indent]Pope Benedict ended up his letter with one conclusion. Justification is by faith with works in accordance with Roman Catholic Church’s Tradition’.

The Pope explained his argument that the ‘law’ in Gal 2:15 is the Torah in its totality and the ‘works of the law’ is the Jewish Tradition. Therefore, if I will follow Pope’s explanation, it seems Apostle Paul is saying something like ‘Let us all throw our tradition because by them no one will be justified but, put our faith to Christ for our justification’. But the Pope did not explain, who are these people called ‘Jews’ in Gal 2:15-16 because they already know that ‘justification is by faith in Christ and not by works’ since birth.

It is written in Gal 2:15- 16

[color="#FF0000"][b]We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.[/b] So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified[/color]. [/indent]
......to be continued

Edited December 12, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[indent]The stroke of Salvation History is very obvious in his letter and it seems he truly believed that God blessed and prepared everything only for Christians, especially Catholics, as if God in his goodness becomes unfair in treating the entire generations of humanity by showing favoritism toward this particular Christian era. According to this theory, God used Israelites and other previous generation to shape and prepare everything for the coming of this Christ and for the establishment of his Church. Pope Benedict in his letter said,

[color="#0000FF"]‘For the Apostle, the Mosaic Law, as an irrevocable gift of God to Israel, is not abrogated but revitalized, since it is only by faith in God’s promises to Abraham, now fulfilled in Christ, that we receive the grace of justification and new life. The law finds its end in Christ and its fulfillment in the new commandment of love. With Paul, then, let us make the Cross of Christ our only boast and give thanks for the grace which has made us members of Christ’s Body, which is the Church.[/color]

Christian is the spiritual Israel according to Origen in his commentary to the book of John and he tried to prove his view regarding the irrelevance of lineage or race using Romans 2:28-29. As if he is saying; if you believe in your heart and accept our Jesus Christ and obey his command then you are circumcised by the spirit and not by written code. It seems, God’s approval is now beyond man’s reach in this new world of Christianity but, he overlooked that there are false Jews and false Christians in Apostle Paul’s testimony and neither of them is better because both of them are false.

Now we know they have their own set of religious belief, rituals, baptism, prayers, penance, and understanding of Christ and even doctrine of purgatory which we call ‘tradition’. But still, one is not better than the other because a genuine Christian is also a true Jew in its truest sense of the word. For what is the difference between a man who have been ‘circumcised at the heart, by the Spirit and praised by God’ (True Jew in Romans 2:28-2:29) and a man who was ‘born again’ (Christian in John 3:3)? If Christ Disciples, which is called Christians, cannot be called in its different name as ‘The Chosen People of God’ which is the meaning of the word ‘Jews’; then you are looking on these set of believers who used these names and titles for themselves from where it does not belong to them, and you do not see the truthfulness of the meaning of these words.

Christians is not better than the Jews because God shows his fairness and goodness for all God’s believers from the very first to the last generation of the entire humanity. And this fairness and goodness was manifested in a ‘test’ which he prepared since the beginning of time. This test is the coming of His Christ who will judge your ‘faith with works’ which is actually your deeds and then, you will realize why Apostle Paul said ‘[color="#FF0000"]justification is by faith apart from observing the law’.[/color]

To be just in the eyes of man is different than to be just in the eyes of God. While it is true that religious beliefs, rituals, and ethics - which are the basis of a just man - are evolving from Jewish tradition to Christian tradition but justification that comes from God never change and it cannot be altered. It will always be the same. God knows who are his own for he tested them and this grace was given, not because of their works but because of faith as it is written, ‘[color="#FF0000"]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast’ [/color]But in what way this grace was given? [/indent]
....to be continued

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1725577' date='Dec 11 2008, 04:13 PM']"All your solas are belong to us!"[/quote]

LOL

[Ziggamafu]

Reyb, if you don't believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God than you should not be quoting it as if it is authoritative. If you do believe this, than you should be Catholic since you cannot know what the Bible is apart from the authority of the Catholic Church.

Everytime the Scriptures seem to berate works, they refer to the works of the Old Law of Moses, not the new law of Christ in his Church. The Scriptures clearly tell us that it is by works of faith - faithful works in Christ - that we are justified and (quote) "not by faith alone".

But the real issue is your misuse of Scriptures of the Catholic Church. I believe I've already posted reasons to believe in God, then Christ, then his Church. Stop stalling in rebellion; be Catholic. You'll be happier for it.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726759' date='Dec 12 2008, 08:34 PM']Reyb, if you don't believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God than you should not be quoting it as if it is authoritative. If you do believe this, than you should be Catholic since you cannot know what the Bible is apart from the authority of the Catholic Church.

Everytime the Scriptures seem to berate works, they refer to the works of the Old Law of Moses, not the new law of Christ in his Church. The Scriptures clearly tell us that it is by works of faith - faithful works in Christ - that we are justified and (quote) "not by faith alone".

But the real issue is your misuse of Scriptures of the Catholic Church. I believe I've already posted reasons to believe in God, then Christ, then his Church. Stop stalling in rebellion; be Catholic. You'll be happier for it.[/quote]
[indent]Who told you that I do not believe that the bible is the infallible word of God? Okay. I accept and believe with all my heart that the Scripture or Bible is the Truth from God. Okay? But what I do not accept is your Church's ‘interpretation’ to the bible. I hope it is clear now. [/indent]
[indent]And who told you that this is true? ([color="#0000FF"]Since you cannot know what the Bible is apart from the authority of the Catholic Church[/color]) Why then it is writen in'1 John 2:27[color="#FF0000"]As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you [/color]. Of course, you still need your Church's teaching but it should not be that way. Otherwise, 1 John 2:27 is wrong again. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726759' date='Dec 12 2008, 08:34 PM'][color="#0000FF"]But the real issue is your misuse of Scriptures of the Catholic Church[/color]. I believe I've already posted reasons to believe in God, then Christ, then his Church. Stop stalling in rebellion; be Catholic. You'll be happier for it.[/quote]

[indent]What do you mean by ' [color="#0000FF"]Scriptures of the Catholic Church'[/color]?[/indent]
[indent]Just for info. The Bible is not written by your Church. Your early Church fathers simply compiled these widely accepted inspired ‘books, letters or prophecies’ and then called it ‘The Bible’ during that time. Now, whether they are really guided by the Holy Spirit in choosing them among many others books is another subject we have to discuss but, my position is -they are not. Actually, it seems, they ‘choose’ these scriptures with one very important criterion, and that is, if it gives emphasis to their historical Jesus as the Messiah. [/indent]

[reyb]

.....let us continue

[indent]Let us take Apostle Paul as an example. In Phil 3:4-6 he declared how religious he was even before he saw that light in Damascus and then he testified in Romans 7:15-7:20,

[color="#FF0000"][indent]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.[/indent][/color]

In the above verse, he is simply saying that when he was still slave to sin, he is unaware that he is against God. And at that time, he thought he can see clearly since he firmly believed, he is doing the will of God in accordance to the scripture. In short, he thought he thoroughly understand the true message of the scripture (Torah) hence he said ‘[color="#FF0000"]as for legalistic righteousness, faultless’[/color] (see Phil 3:6). But the truth is, unknowingly, he is doing the very opposite of such commandments. That is why he said ‘‘[color="#FF0000"]I do not understand what I do’. [/color]

Although his heart or his inner being is set to follow the will of God (see Romans 7:22) but since God’s law is still a mystery or hidden from him thus, he failed to do it but rather, he is obeying the ‘other’ meaning of the scripture which he called ‘another law’ see (Romans 7:23). This ‘other law’ is actually the distorted interpretation or the ‘counterfeit’ message of scripture brought by the wisdom of this world (1 Cor 3:19). He also called it ‘doctrine of man’ or ‘tradition of man’ (Col 2:8). Of course nobody wants to do follow the ‘teaching of man’ when it comes to spirituality. All of us wanted to follow the will of One and Only Eternal God but he thought and by faith this ‘other law’ is ‘God’s Law thus, he said ‘[color="#FF0000"]For I want to do I do not do but what I hate I do’. [/color]

And then he proves that the scripture is correct as if he is saying ‘Yes, I am I doing the ‘other law’. Therefore, I am wrong but the Torah is correct, thus he said,

[color="#FF0000"]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.[/color]
[/indent]
......to be continued

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1722920' date='Dec 8 2008, 11:34 PM']An Outline of the Nature and Origins of Government in the Church:
Proving that Christ intended a Specific Church under the Papacy
-by Brian Roberts-[/quote]

[indent][post="1439060"]Since you want to prove that the Roman Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ, please put your answer or any arguments in One True Church thread.

This is my first question: Are Holy Prophets member of the Roman Catholic Church? I mean do they have the same belief as a Catholic?[/post][/indent]

[reyb]

.....to continue
[indent]This is one of the reasons I do not agree with Pope Benedict when he said ‘[color="#0000FF"]other observances are no longer necessary’ [/color]as if he is saying some commandments in the Torah are needed to be followed while others are not important’. Of course in Christianity, it is today’s commonly accepted theology, as in the case of Sabbath and moon festivals or offering of bulls, goats or whatever animals except for some rules like the law given to Moses, the Ten Commandments. But Apostle Paul is not referring to selective obedience or selective abrogation of the Torah in Gal 2:16. He said ‘…[color="#FF0000"]because by observing the law no one will be justified[/color]. What is that ‘observing the law’ really mean? So let us post different translations of this verse.

Gal 2:16
[color="#FF0000"]16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified [/color]
NIV

Gal 2:16
[color="#FF0000"]16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. [/color]NKJV

Gal 2:16

[color="#FF0000"]16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/color]
KJV

Gal 2:16

[color="#FF0000"]16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/color]
ASV

Gal 2:16

[color="#FF0000"]16 but knowing that a man is not justified on the principle of works of law [nor] but by the faith of Jesus Christ, we also have believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified on the principle of [the] faith of Christ; and not of works of law; because on the principle of works of law no flesh shall be justified.[/color]
Darby

Gal 2:15-16
[color="#FF0000"] 16 And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ — and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." [/color]
NLT

Gal 2:16

[color="#FF0000"]16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'[/color]
YLT[/indent]
.....to be continued

[Ziggamafu]

Reyb. Come on. You are running in circles around the issue. You have not rebutted the logic of any of my posts. The most you have mustered is to pull out verses and ask questions - but you have not actually been rebutting my conclusions, only desperately searching for loopholes. What is worse, if you go back to my original posts to you, you have not actually been addressing my posts point for point. You ramble on and on and the most seemingly random things.

Here, let's try again:

The Bible is an objective teaching authority.
The Church is an objective teaching authority.

You believe the Bible is the only one of the two that is infallible.
I believe that both are infallible.

In your system, we have a fallible Church writing, discerning, compiling, declaring, and organizing books that are infallible (in other words, you posit a fallible cause for an infallible effect). The only way your system would have weight is if the canon was approved by Christ and Christ said that only written revelation was infallible.

Also in your system (as a necessary consequence), individualism and subjectivism is promoted at the cost of community since every person arrives at a personal interpretation of Scripture. Do you honestly think it is mere coincidence that only since the popularization of sola scriptura have we seen an explosian of "denominations" which, despite what many Protestants claim, have very serious differences in doctrinal and moral teachings? Yet there is, as there has always been, the same old Catholic Church.

Go get in RCIA. Quick!

[Ziggamafu]

[img]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n105/Ziggamafu/revelationillustration.jpg[/img]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726970' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:45 AM']Reyb. Come on. You are running in circles around the issue. You have not rebutted the logic of any of my posts. The most you have mustered is to pull out verses and ask questions - but you have not actually been rebutting my conclusions, only desperately searching for loopholes. What is worse, if you go back to my original posts to you, you have not actually been addressing my posts point for point. You ramble on and on and the most seemingly random things.

Here, let's try again:

The Bible is an objective teaching authority.
The Church is an objective teaching authority.

You believe the Bible is the only one of the two that is infallible.
I believe that both are infallible.

In your system, we have a fallible Church writing, discerning, compiling, declaring, and organizing books that are infallible (in other words, you posit a fallible cause for an infallible effect). The only way your system would have weight is if the canon was approved by Christ and Christ said that only written revelation was infallible.

Also in your system (as a necessary consequence), individualism and subjectivism is promoted at the cost of community since every person arrives at a personal interpretation of Scripture. Do you honestly think it is mere coincidence that only since the popularization of sola scriptura have we seen an explosian of "denominations" which, despite what many Protestants claim, have very serious differences in doctrinal and moral teachings? Yet there is, as there has always been, the same old Catholic Church.

Go get in RCIA. Quick![/quote]
[indent]Ok. I will try my best. You said 'The Church is an objective teaching authority' Of course, you are referring to your Roman Catholic Church.[/indent]
[indent]Question: who founded your Church? Your answer is... Jesus Christ. am I correct?[/indent]

Edited December 13, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1726970' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:45 AM']Reyb. Come on. You are running in circles around the issue. You have not rebutted the logic of any of my posts. The most you have mustered is to pull out verses and ask questions - but you have not actually been rebutting my conclusions, only desperately searching for loopholes. [b][color="#0000FF"]What is worse, if you go back to my original posts to you, you have not actually been addressing my posts point for point[/color][/b]. You ramble on and on and the most seemingly random things.

Here, let's try again:

The Bible is an objective teaching authority.
The Church is an objective teaching authority.

You believe the Bible is the only one of the two that is infallible.
I believe that both are infallible.

In your system, we have a fallible Church writing, discerning, compiling, declaring, and organizing books that are infallible (in other words, you posit a fallible cause for an infallible effect). The only way your system would have weight is if the canon was approved by Christ and Christ said that only written revelation was infallible.

Also in your system (as a necessary consequence), individualism and subjectivism is promoted at the cost of community since every person arrives at a personal interpretation of Scripture. Do you honestly think it is mere coincidence that only since the popularization of sola scriptura have we seen an explosian of "denominations" which, despite what many Protestants claim, have very serious differences in doctrinal and moral teachings? Yet there is, as there has always been, the same old Catholic Church.

Go get in RCIA. Quick![/quote]

[indent]you are correct. I really ignore your previous post because all of them as just 'belief'
Anyway, let us start from here and we will discuss them one by one. Okay?

Jesus Christ is the founder of your Church (Catholic Church). This is according to Catholics. Am I correct? [/indent]

Edited December 13, 2008 by reyb

[Ziggamafu]

Yes. Christ founded and granted protection to the Church (the point of the outline-essay I posted earlier). I also want to add the follow-up illustration I just made:

[img]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n105/Ziggamafu/Protrevelationillustration.jpg[/img]

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1727024' date='Dec 13 2008, 12:46 PM']Yes. Christ founded and granted protection to the Church (the point of the outline-essay I posted earlier). I also want to add the follow-up illustration I just made:[/quote]

[indent]Before, we go to a much further discussion regarding your flow chart or whatever. Let us concentrate on this issue. Jesus Christ is the founder of your Church. Okay? Is it just a belief or it is the truth? [/indent]