No Salvation Outside

[mortify]

But personally do you feel there is a need for an authority?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i could see it going either way, honestly..
(i mean of course the holy spirit is the authority and God etc whatever the case, but as per whether CC etc)

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1401881' date='Oct 13 2007, 05:06 PM']golden, you said that the CC has changed its posoition. how so? do you think they're including too many people? in practice maybe but not sure about theologically.

do you have evidence as per the initial post of the thread?

we're getting too much into empty gestures of what people think, and theories of what the CC meant when it proclaimed "no salvation...." a few hundred years ago, but without any evidence to back it up.

that's the purpose of this hread, after all.[/quote]


Yes I do believe this is one of many areas in which they have changed their position, but that might be better suited for an email discussion than this forum. I have the quotes I promised you. But there in a folder on my other computer. Give me an hour or two to finish up some family stuff and I'll get that on here.

[mortify]

Several verses on authority:

[color="#0000FF"]"You are looking at things as they are outwardly If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we. For even if I boast somewhat further about [b]our authority, which the Lord gave[/b] for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be put to shame, for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters."
2 Corinthians 10:7-9

"For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete. For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with [b]the authority which the Lord gave me[/b] for building up and not for tearing down. Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you."
2 Corinthians 13:9-11

"Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. For you know what commandments we gave you [b]by the authority of the Lord Jesus[/b]."
1 Thessalonians 4:1-3[/color]

I get the sense that Jesus' earthly authority did not end by His ascension into heaven, but continues in His Church.

Edited October 14, 2007 by mortify

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1401969' date='Oct 13 2007, 08:18 PM']i'm not claiming the following as definitive proof, but here
[url="http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Outside_the_Catholic_Church_There_is_Absutely_No_Salvation.html#BOD"]http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Out...vation.html#BOD[/url][/quote]

The Dimonds are Feeneyites and are not to be trusted on this topic. I generally look on their site when I'm trying to find something quickly because they do a good job of collecting quotes on different topics, but in general they are very poor when it comes to understanding Catholic theology, and definitely have an erroneous view on this topic. Besides I think links such as this are forbidden on PM, otherwise I'd be able to link you to a couple of really good articles on this subject.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't check this email a lot but

dairygirl4u2c@yahoo.com


something tells me it won't be anything new, but let's see.

Edited October 14, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[goldenchild17]

I won't bother you with stuff you say you already know. I'll post those quotes you asked for in just a little bit. The area I find that has changed in Rome is not necessarily related to Baptism of Desire or Blood, but moreso on the source of grace and generation of salvation in churches outside the Catholic Church, and on the definition of the Church and who they consider to be a part or "partly" a part of the Church.

Edited October 14, 2007 by goldenchild17

[PapaHilarious]

Dairy,

No response to Fr. Ray Ryland's article? Perhaps if you didn't find it useful or didn't like what it had to say, you could elaborate, and I could get a better sense of your thoughts.

Just thought I'd followup

[goldenchild17]

Here's a little something to get started on. As a couple of the quotes show, this doctrine goes back a long ways. It was mentioned and supported by Sts. Augustine and Ambrose and St. Gregory Nazianzen, all Early Church Fathers. It picked up moreso in the Middle Ages, but these quotes by these ECF's show that the doctrine did exist in the early centuries as well. I should mention that this is just a collection of quotes from sites which I am not allowed to link to on the forum. Anything that is not part of a direct quote is from the context of that site, none of this is my own work.
________________________________________
____________________________________
[b]Council of Trent Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):[/b]
"If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
[b]Council of Trent Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):[/b]
"In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of sons’ [Rom.8:15] of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior; and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration [b]or a desire for it[/b] as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ [Jn. 3:5]" (Dz. 796, emphasis added)

The baptism of desire (flaminis) is described by the Church Doctor [b]Saint Robert Bellarmine[/b] —in accordance with Saint Thomas’s definition of the same —as follows:
"Perfect conversion and penitence is rightly called [b]baptism of desire[/b], and in necessity at least, [b]it supplies for the baptism of water[/b]. It is to be noted that any conversion whatsoever cannot be called baptism of desire; but only perfect conversion, [b]which includes[/b] true contrition and charity, and at the same time [b]a desire or vowed intention of baptism[/b]" (De Sacramento Baptismi, Liber I cap. VI).

[b]Hugh of Saint Victor:[/b]
"On the Triple Baptism. There is a triple baptism, the river, the flame and the blood. The river in water, [b]the flame in penance[/b], the blood in martyrdom" [author’s translation].
(Hugh wrote these words in the early 12th century and they are contained in the 177th volume of the famous Latin Patrology of J.P. Migne in the appendix of the dogmatic works of Hugh. Hugh is brief in this appendix, but in his widely read Summa Sententiarum, he devotes a chapter to proving the existence of these three baptisms from the Fathers of the Church and against the heretic Peter Abelard, who refused to believe in the baptismus flaminis referred to in English as the baptism of desire.)
Hugh of Saint Victor, around 1125, wrote to his friend, [b]Saint Bernard of Clairvaux[/b], and asked him to write against the teaching of those who deny the doctrine that salvation may be obtained by desire for baptism. Saint Bernard obliges in his Letter 77 to Hugh of Saint Victor. [b]Saint Bernard[/b], by far the greatest Doctor of the 12th century, [b]writes[/b] plainly and clearly, using the authority of Sacred Scripture and the Fathers of the Church to back up his belief in what is called the baptism of desire. He states at one point in his letter:
"We adduce only the opinions and words of the Fathers and not our own; for we are not wiser than our fathers ...Believe me, it will be difficult to separate me from these two pillars, by which I refer to Augustine and Ambrose. I confess that with them I am either right or wrong in believing that [b]people can be saved by faith alone and the desire to receive the sacrament, even if untimely death or some insuperable force keep them from fulfilling their pious desire[/b]" (Letter 77, 1, 8).
[b]Saint Bernard[/b] continues, quoting the authority of Scripture to affirm his above assertion that Ambrose and Augustine are right in stating that desire can, in extraordinary cases, supply the want of baptism:
"Notice also that when the Savior said ‘Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,’ He cautiously and alertly did not repeat the phrase ‘who was not baptized,’ but only ‘Whoever does not believe will be condemned’ [Mk. 16:16]."


[b]Saint Ambrose, "On the Death of Valentinian"[/b] in which the saint states that the unbaptized 20-year-old emperor, who was murdered in the Alps while on his way to be baptized by Ambrose, had saved his soul because of his ardent desire for baptism and his supernatural virtue. In that sermon written by [b]Saint Ambrose[/b], he writes:

"But I hear that you mourn, because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism ... Does he not have the grace that he desired; does he not have what he asked for? [b]Certainly what he asked for, he received.[/b] And hence it says ‘But the just man, if he be prevented with death, shall be in rest’’ [Wis. 4:7] (PL 16, 1374).



[b]Pope Innocent III:[/b]
[b]Apostolicam:[/b]
To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written, "[b]Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.[/b]" Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. [b]Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned.[/b] (Denzinger 388)
[b]Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:[/b]
You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: "I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: "Go baptize all nations in the name etc." (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another... [b]If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament,[/b] although not because of the sacrament of faith. (Denzinger 413)

[b]Pope Innocent II[/b] taught the same with regard to a priest, when after his death it was found that he had not been baptized. He writes:
"Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where, among other things it is written, ‘Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.’ Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned" (Innocent II, Letter Apostolicam Sedem, Dz. 388, emphasis added).


[b]St. Alphonsus Liguori , Moral Theology - (Bk. 6):[/b]
"But [b]baptism of desire[/b] is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an [b]explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water[/b], the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. [b]Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration [u]or the desire for it[/u].'[/b]"


[b]1917 Code of Canon Law[/b]
[b]On Ecclesiastical Burial - (Canon 1239. 2)[/b]
"[b]Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.[/b]"
The Sacred Canons by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.
Commentary on the Code:
"The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through [b]Baptism of Desire.[/b]"

[b]St. Augustine of Hippo:
City of God[/b]
"I do not hesitate to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic... The centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who had been baptized. [b]For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with the Holy Ghost[/b], while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit" (De Bapt. C. Donat., IV 21).
"[b]Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.[/b]" (Denzinger 388)

[b]St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:[/b]
"I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
"[b]Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism[/b], which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: [b]'I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.'[/b] "
[b]Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:[/b] “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion AND WHO ZEALOUSLY KEEPING THE NATURAL LAW AND ITS PRECEPTS ENGRAVED IN THE HEARTS OF ALL BY GOD, AND BEING READY TO OBEY GOD, LIVE AN HONEST AND UPRIGHT LIFE, can, by the OPERATING POWER OF DIVINE LIGHT AND GRACE, attain eternal life since God... will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.


[b]St. Gregory Nazianzen (AD 381):[/b]

“Now, since our Festival is of Baptism, and we must endure a little hardness with Him Who for our sake took form, and was baptized, and was crucified; let us speak about the different kinds of Baptism, that we may come out thence purified. Moses baptized Leviticus xi but it was in water, and before that in the cloud and in the sea. 1 Corinthians 10:2 This was typical as Paul says; the Sea of the water, and the Cloud of the Spirit; the Manna, of the Bread of Life; the Drink, of the Divine Drink. John also baptized; but this was not like the baptism of the Jews, for it was not only in water, but also "unto repentance." Still it was not wholly spiritual, for he does not add "And in the Spirit." Jesus also baptized, but in the Spirit. This is the perfect Baptism. And how is He not God, if I may digress a little, by whom you too are made God? [b]I know also a Fourth Baptism—that by Martyrdom and blood, which also Christ himself underwent:—and this one is far more august than all the others, inasmuch as it cannot be defiled by after-stains.[/b] Yes, and I know of a Fifth also, which is that of tears, and is much more laborious, received by him who washes his bed every night and his couch with tears; whose bruises stink through his wickedness; and who goes mourning and of a sad countenance; who imitates the repentance of Manasseh 2 Chronicles 38:12 and the humiliation of the Ninevites Jonah 3:7-10 upon which God had mercy; who utters the words of the Publican in the Temple, and is justified rather than the stiff-necked Pharisee; Luke 18:13 who like the Canaanite woman bends down and asks for mercy and crumbs, the food of a dog that is very hungry. Matthew 15:27”


St. Bonaventure states that “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the [b]baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient[/b], provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies." (In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I.)

[dairygirl4u2c]

the reason i didn't take much from the article of father ray. he is putting forth the theory that the church can include those who are not in the physical barriers. this simply shows how all those medieval quites of no salvation might not be what we would otherwise think they are, not definitive proof that's what those popes had in mind. it is not evidence from that time frame for a lenient view.

when someone is saying "abosoltuve not possible" etc, i tend to think they mean it in a rigorous sense, and the fact they didn't elaborate saying "and if you are a man on an island you might be able to be saved" doesn't mean they weren't being rigorists.

[dairygirl4u2c]

as for the recent quotes by golden. i see, and appreciate that Innocent III said that someone who was in the church but somehow happened to be not baptized was implicitly baptized. he's from the middle ages, so it shows some leniency. but, what i am searching for is that the man who is on an island could be saved or not.
maybe that a man who's heard vaguely of christianity could be saved without being christian. but this starts getting into grayer areas, such as how much they've heard etc.
mainly the stuff about being on an island.

i read one academic books say they never considered men on islands cause they thought all knew of christianity, so they thought they were speaking to people who knew. only people who were obstinante.
but this is just a theory, i'm not sure about assuming that. you'd think you'd see more about "refusing" "obstinence" etc.


i appreciate the texts qouted tho.

[dairygirl4u2c]

see, "no one at all" "absolutely necessary". pretty strong stuff.

[quote]There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council).

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

also golden, i'm still not sure how you differ from the CC now. they beleive baptism by desire. they say it's hard to be saved if you're not an actual catholic. they say i think that you can be saved if you're the man on the island, and i think you are saying it might be possible.
so i don't see how you differ other than maybe you're saying maybe it's possible and they are saying it is possible. (though to add to confusion, some argue the CC only teaches it MAY be possible but we don't know. this is still problemaatic though if the strict texts are truly strict in intention)

[mortify]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1402303' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:26 PM']i read one academic books say they never considered men on islands cause they thought all knew of christianity, so they thought they were speaking to people who knew. only people who were obstinante.
but this is just a theory, i'm not sure about assuming that. you'd think you'd see more about "refusing" "obstinence" etc.
i appreciate the texts qouted tho.[/quote]

Which academic book was that, btw?

The Church's teaching concerning those who know and reject her hasn't changed. The Second Vatican Council re emphasized it:

[color="#0000FF"]"This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. [b]Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved."[/b]
(Lumen gentium 14)[/color]


These are the folks those numerous magisterial statements refer to when speaking about no salvation outside of the Church. It is the same warning our Lord gave to those towns that rejected Him *after* He had made Himself known to them, bearing all necessary signs. But our Lord also said that for those who do not know Him, their can be no fault:

[color="#0000FF"]"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." John 15:22[/color]

It's a principle of theology that only those with fault can go to hell, if you are ignorant you can't be at fault. This is the type of people our Lord and the Second Vatican Council addressed when it said:

[color="#0000FF"]"[b]Those also can attain to salvation [u]who through no fault of their own[/u] do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church[/b], yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life."
(Lumen gentium 16)[/color]

And this is no different from what was taught some hundred years before the second vatican council:

[color="#0000FF"]"God . . . in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone
to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of
voluntary fault. But it is also a Catholic dogma, that no one outside the
Catholic Church can be saved, and that those who are contumacious against
the authority of the same Church (and) definitions and who are obstinately
(pertinaciter) separated from the unity of this Church and from the Roman
Pontiff, successor of Peter, to whom the custody of the vineyard was
entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal salvation."[/color]
Pius IX, in "Quanto conficiamur moerore" of August 10, 1863


For further reading:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT[/url]

and...

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/url]

[thessalonian]

[quote]I believe that Rome has most certainly changed its teaching in regards to non-Catholic religions and salvation outside the Church. But I think what you are most interested in is Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire. Correct me if I'm wrong as I find the error of the current (and recent past) Vatican administration(s) to be of quite another origin.[/quote]

Vatican II was certainly know change if you read Karl Adam and Ludwig Ott considered to be classic theologians before Vatican II. The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917 is also in line with what the CCC teaches today. Affirming a teaching in the positive sense for those who hear what God commans in a way that is understandable is not a contradiction to saying that those who do not have the grace to know certain things may not be damned. Luke 12 confirms that we don't have to all be perfect theologians like you trads to go to heaven.