kujo Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 So, to sum it all up. Homosexuality= not good Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1402071' date='Oct 13 2007, 09:26 PM']apo should admit that the common usage often says that homosexuality means the persons.[/quote] The word "homosexuality" never refers to persons; instead, the term refers to homosexual acts or to the homosexual condition, whether that condition is transitory or perdures over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1402071' date='Oct 13 2007, 09:26 PM'][R]eally though, it's just quibbling, and apo should admit that as per the common defiition cmom should have been either been corrected, or at least clarified.[/quote] Cmom's use of the word "homosexuality" was perfectly clear and legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote]If I had an inclination or desire to throttle any blue-eyed person who came near me, such an inclination would be objectively (and I would argue intrinsically) disordered. If I did not act on or indulge this inclination, I would not be sinning, yet my inclination itself would still be disordered.[/quote] See this is exactly what I'm talking about. the Church would not say its objectively disordered. When the Church talks about desires being objectively disordered, they are referring specifically to sexual desires that do not result in procreation. You will not find any non sexual destructive desire to be referred to as "objectively disordered" People using secular definitions to church language goes to why this is an important distinction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 i sometimes look at homosexuality to mean the state of being a homosexual. so to say it's disordered would be against CC teaching, if you allow them to be referenced to as homosexuals. but with that said... jaimie did say "a desire is not disordered" at one point. i think there was somehting else going on that i maybe wasnt aware of. jaimie should clarify what he thinks is disordered and what he means by desire and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote]but with that said... jaimie did say "a desire is not disordered" at one point. i think there was somehting else going on that i maybe wasnt aware of.[/quote] noooo I said a desire is not intrinsically disordered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 (edited) Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic. That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered. Edited October 14, 2007 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 (edited) what do you mean by that hot stuff? the one guy quoted the catechism as saying this... [quote]Homosexual inclination = objective disorder Homosexual act = intrinsic disorder[/quote] it seems like having a desire isn't disordered in that you aren't sinning. but the fact you have a desire at all is disordered. with that said, i think a clarification and firm stance by jaimie is warranted. from where i'm sitting anyway. Edited October 14, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 i think there's been a confusion... jaimie admits that it's disordered. he says it's not intrinsically disordered. maybe what he's saying is that it's not so intrinsic your disorder that you're automatially sinning. or at least i'm not sure why he draws a line between intrinsically disordered and disordered. he needs to clarify. remember, homosexuality often refers to the state of being a homosexual. so to say homosexuality is to say being a person who's a homoseual is disordered. which is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402086' date='Oct 13 2007, 11:47 PM']Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic. That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered.[/quote] Well Professor Kemp isn't the first one. And I don't know how novel my view is since I'm toting the Church line on this. And if its completely interchangeable and I'm wrong, why does the Church make such a strong effort to make the distinction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1402092' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:02 PM']Well Professor Kemp isn't the first one. And I don't know how novel my view is since I'm toting the Church line on this. And if its completely interchangeable and I'm wrong, why does the Church make such a strong effort to make the distinction?[/quote] Perhaps the Church of hot stuff, but not the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402086' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:47 AM']Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic. That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered.[/quote] By novel views, do you mean the ones I quotes in the Catechism? I dunno how much credibility your professor has, but I choose to give more Catholic cred to...uhum...the Catholic Church. [quote]Chastity and homosexuality CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, [u][b]tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[/b][/u] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b][u]This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.[/u][/b] They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/quote] The Church has spoken. If your argument is that the Church teaches that a homosexual inclination is intrinsically disordered, then here is the proof that it is now. This debate is over. Edited October 14, 2007 by XIX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402093' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:04 AM']Perhaps the Church of hot stuff, but not the doctrine of the Catholic Church.[/quote] And yet I've quoted multiple texts from the Catholic Church You've offered opinion Oh and if the Holy Father is comfortable enough to call people with homosexual attractions, homosexuals Its good enough for me folks and that ain't the church of hot stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='XIX' post='1402096' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:09 PM']By novel views, do you mean the ones I quotes in the Catechism? I dunno how much credibility your professor has, but I choose to give more Catholic cred to...uhum...the Catholic Church.[/quote] The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a reference text, nothing more, and it does not purport to an exhaustive treatment of Catholic doctrine. An objective disorder is by definition an intrinsic disorder, because a disorder of that kind concerns the proper end of the action or being in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1402099' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:12 PM']And yet I've quoted multiple texts from the Catholic Church You've offered opinion Oh and if the Holy Father is comfortable enough to call people with homosexual attractions, homosexuals Its good enough for me folks[/quote] hot stuff, Do a search and you will see that I have quoted Magisterial texts on this topic at Phatmass for more than three years. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now