Simple Question

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1401125' date='Oct 12 2007, 01:04 AM']Mortify,

What wonderful selections of Scripture you referenced. I'm sad to see that there has been little attempt to dialogue about these verses from the other side, but seeing as the references are pretty straight forward, I am not at all surprised.

I was an Evangelical for 23 years, and when I was in Christian school and later at a Christian college, I remember having many such debates just as Protestant vs. Protestant. They never seemed to go very far, because people only wanted to discuss [i]their[/i] particular verses and would never discuss other verses that seemed to contradict theirs. And ultimately, there was no ability to make an authoritative judgment about Scripture because no one could claim their divinely-inspired interpretation had any more weight than someone else's. So in the end, whoever disagrees with you, you simply had to believe that they were not understanding Scripture properly and therefore, their faith was flawed.

Here's a verse that is a major stumbling block to the proposed topic, Mark 16:16 -
The majority of Protestant denominations (how many out of the 30,000 is anybody's guess) do not believe baptism to be anything but symbolic. Yet Jesus clearly said belief + baptism right here. And then again, take a passage like 1 Cor 13:13 -
Protestant churches teach that faith in Jesus is all you need, and yet here we have Paul teaching that love is even greater than faith???

Here's the heart of the issue: Christians all agree that belief in Jesus is what gets you to heaven. Yes, that seems "simple." However, no two Christian churches can agree on what exactly "belief in Jesus" means. If they all agreed, then there would be no need for thousands of churches under slightly different banners and practices.

Jesus died as our Savior, and His death granted the chance of eternal life forwards and backwards through time to [u]all[/u] people (John 3:16). What does it mean to truly believe in Him and accept this gift of salvation? It's not just one verse. If it were, we wouldn't need 27 books in the New Testament. Belief in Christ involves so much of us that it fills pages and pages of radical thoughts like [i]Eat my Body, Drink my Blood[/i] and [i]be born again with water and the spirit[/i] and [i]Forgive those who hate you.[/i] And yet, faith is also so simple that the Church got along for decades before the Bible was even completed (and centuries before the books were finalized). And in many ways, it's like being a child, particularly as it involves trust. Trust in God. Trust in Jesus. And trust in the Spirit that guides the Church Jesus left us behind.

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said:
Those that decided to start their own churches in the Reformation (and later) believed that, indeed, the gates of hell had prevailed and there was no more [C]hurch we could rely on. If that's so, then Jesus lied to us. That, or He was a lunatic.

The third option, and what I came to understand after 23 years of fighting tooth and nail, is that He is neither. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. And if we are to believe one Scripture passage that has been protected and handed down to us from Holy Church, by the authority passed on from our Lord, then we have to consider them all. Not just the ones that we like or are the easiest. It takes a lot of humility, but it also involves great joy.

peace. - Papa[/quote]

With the Lord's help, I will take care of those passages when I get time later.

Edited October 12, 2007 by OneForTruth

[Starets]

Yes, Jesus is my savior, but "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a biblical doctrine so I, in union with the Church that Jesus founded, reject it root and branch. 'nuff said.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1400971' date='Oct 12 2007, 03:28 AM']Yes...but will a born again believer fall into mortal sin? The context tells us..."No"...[/quote]

Ted Haggard?

The dozens of other prominent Evangelical leaders who preach about moral living but go against their own message behind closed doors?

I am not condemning them for this. Their sins lie between them and God, not between them and me. What I do condemn is the way so many Evangelical Christians try to force that sort of behaviour into the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mould.

"He wasn't a true Christian to start with. He must not have got saved properly." [Question: If professing belief in Jesus is all that is required for salvation, how is it possible not to do it 'properly'? Doesn't that suggest that some effort is required on the part of the believer? Co-operation with divine grace, perhaps?]

"He wasn't cut off from God. He's just backsliding." [So, when you 'get saved', sin becomes like an elastic band - you can sin as much as you like and trust that the band will ping back eventually? What kind of shoddy excuse for holiness is this?]

"He's saved, so he can't commit a mortal sin. His sins may be bad, but they aren't deadly." [This is perhaps the most illogical one of all, as it suggests that Jesus' sacrifice changed the nature of sin itself rather than the life of the believer.]

Jesus is our holiness. Our only holiness. We know that we have nothing by our own merit. This is expressed by one short, poignant, powerful line of a prayer that we pray during every Mass: "You alone are the Holy One." No Catholic believes that DIY salvation is possible - this is a myth, distorted by countless Protestant games of Chinese whispers and aided by strains of Jansenism that still haven't entirely died out in parts of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church describes salvation as ‘the most excellent work of God’s love – the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being’. This makes it quite clear that salvation for Catholics is something that is freely given and freely received, not something that we buy or earn. But if we accept that salvation is God’s love at its most sublime, there is no way it can be detached from our actions, prayer, or relationships with others…because God’s love holds all those things in being.

To use an imperfect metaphor, our understanding of salvation is like ballroom dancing. The whole dance is of God's composition; we have nothing to offer it except our co-operation. Jesus is not going to drag us round the dance floor against our will. We have to make a conscious choice to follow Him, to tread where He treads, to move where He moves, to live as He lives. It takes effort to respond to love. But while the Evangelical Protestant looks at this effort and sees it as draining and onerous, the Catholic sees it as a celebration dance.

Fear of Hell plays a large part in Evangelical Protestant faith and practice, which is perhaps why so many Evangelical Protestants see the Catholic hope of Heaven as so frightening and pitiful. But we are not afraid, because that hope does not exist as a tributary to a terror of Hell - it comes to us as a gift of the Holy Spirit. And what a gift!

A Protestant friend who was out to convert me once said, "Vicky, there is nothing better than knowing that you are saved." I replied, "No. There is nothing better than knowing that you are loved."

God's love is the only certainty I need, which is why I am very much at peace when I say, "I live in hope of Heaven."

[carrdero]

[quote]Jesussaves writes: so i repeat, is jesus YOUR savior?[/quote]
I believe that the soul is in no need of rescuing and that no entity (spiritual or physical) has the responsibility of saving it.

I am neither impressed with the way that Jesus entered this world nor I am impressed with the way he exited but I am impressed with many of his teachings and the way that he taught them (with patience and understanding). I am not dependant on his existence (or non-existence) for my existence but I do believe that his expressions and the lifestyle that is outlined in the Bible of the man named Jesus has left an indelible impression on and in many people's lives. I believe that we all have the ability (if we desire) to do this for each other.

Edited October 12, 2007 by carrdero

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM']if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.[/quote]

Jesus is everybody's Savior. There is no salvation outside of Him.

Edited October 12, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[thessalonian]

Yes Jesus is my savior. I am on easy street right now though. I have food and clothes and warmth. I have to believe it if I become cold and homeless or stand before a Moslem firing squad. He will be my savior then as well and will give me sufficeint grace if he puts me through such a trial to endure it. But I must continue to recieve his grace in order to endure and to continue saying Jesus is my savior. So your conclusions about our saying that phrase are wrong. Jesus is my savior. But he will not force me to be saved.

[GodChild]

God has given all of his love - he expects nothing less in return ... If you "believe" your saved and have a loud mouth - quick to proclaim your "holier than thou" saved-ness but you don't obey the command of God which is perfect Love. Your loud mouth, your Bible quoting and your "belief" will NOT save you. Love MUST be repaid with love - as God loves you - you must love Him & in this you are saved because love to such a degree, to such perfection is possible only with God's help

Is God my Saviour? Yes - only God is my savior but I am not "saved" by believing in Him, I am saved by loving Him

Cause believe me - it is easier to "believe" with a intellectual acknowledgment - with a "what do I get out of this" belief that many protestants adopt. Oh I'll believe in Jesus cause I get my bum out of hell and hey, its a 'free' gift - with no effort on my part

As opposed to true "belief" in God - which isn't mere belief but true faith. And faith that saves - true faith - only exists if it is a living faith - borne, sustained, beginning, ending, depending on the "grace" of God - His Merciful Love - and thankfully received and lived out in my life through little insignificant "works" which I do to show God I am thankful for His mercy and that I love Him. I am not saved by works - God's mercy alone saves me - but I try to do good "works", love manifested in action, to obey God and please Him. There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".

Love is repaid with Love alone - Much love has been given, much is expected in return

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401204' date='Oct 12 2007, 04:56 PM']There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".[/quote]

That reading came up at Mass last week. "We are but unworthy servants; we have done only that which was our duty."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401204' date='Oct 12 2007, 11:56 AM']God has given all of his love - he expects nothing less in return ... If you "believe" your saved and have a loud mouth - quick to proclaim your "holier than thou" saved-ness but you don't obey the command of God which is perfect Love. Your loud mouth, your Bible quoting and your "belief" will NOT save you. Love MUST be repaid with love - as God loves you - you must love Him & in this you are saved because love to such a degree, to such perfection is possible only with God's help

Is God my Saviour? Yes - only God is my savior but I am not "saved" by believing in Him, I am saved by loving Him

Cause believe me - it is easier to "believe" with a intellectual acknowledgment - with a "what do I get out of this" belief that many protestants adopt. Oh I'll believe in Jesus cause I get my bum out of hell and hey, its a 'free' gift - with no effort on my part

As opposed to true "belief" in God - which isn't mere belief but true faith. And faith that saves - true faith - only exists if it is a living faith - borne, sustained, beginning, ending, depending on the "grace" of God - His Merciful Love - and thankfully received and lived out in my life through little insignificant "works" which I do to show God I am thankful for His mercy and that I love Him. I am not saved by works - God's mercy alone saves me - but I try to do good "works", love manifested in action, to obey God and please Him. There is a scripture writing, I can't remember it, but in doing works of love (good works) when their done I don't say "oh look I'm 2% more saved now" I say "i have done my duty as I was commanded to do".

Love is repaid with Love alone - Much love has been given, much is expected in return[/quote]

[Starets]

Now, jesussaves, why should i believe in "Once Saved always Saved"?
enquiring minds and all that!

[OneForTruth]

PAPA:

I would like to address the scriptures that were brought up as they bring to the table some discussion. First off - who will come to Christ and be saved?? The elect and the elect alone. The details of that discussion would be in another thread...BUT...I will add here now...

Joh 6:44 "[b]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him[/b]; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, [b]that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."[/b]

The elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world...that, one day, they would hear the gospel, repent, and believe on Christ as Lord and Savior. Once done - they are justified by faith apart from works and have the future prospect of being glorified...

Ro 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these [b]whom He justified, He also glorified[/b].

The elect of God must AND WILL persevere to the end as Matthew 24:13 says. This was the first scripture brought to light earlier in this thread...We are exhorted to do so and told that we WILL do so if, indeed, we are of "the called"...

Heb 3:14 For we [b]have become partakers of Christ[/b], if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Please note...persevernce is given as an evidence in this case and not a condition, "have become" being the key phrase. Those who have been chosen WILL persevere. Let's go on to another referenced verse...

Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

This is a warning, correct? What is the purpose of the warnings of scripture? I would argue that the warnings have the purpose of keeping the elect. God makes a decree (Craig will be saved - I have chosen him)...BUT...the conditions that are given for salvation must actaully take place, right? This is the "paradox" that we struggle with...God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. It is very well illustrated in this case...

We have a decree that Paul had received in Acts 27 regarding a dangerous situation that they are found in...a storm on the sea and the following exchange takes place...

Ac 27:21 When they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, "Men, you ought to have followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete and incurred this damage and loss.
22 "Yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, [b]for there will be no loss of life among you[/b], but only of the ship.
23 "For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
24 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, [b]God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.'[/b]

God has planned this to be so and it will take place - because God has said that this would, in fact, happen...BUT...Paul then says later on...

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 [b]Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.[/b]

If God's decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God...He said - DON'T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. We are warned as these were warned. Without these wanrings, we are prone to becoming proud and haughty which is the warning in Romans 11...this is necessary for the keeping of the elect. Fear is a component of saving faith...

Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and [b]I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me[/b].

The elect will not turn...they will be saved.

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Phil 2:12 was brought up...

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

What is salvation in this case??? It is sanctification. Again - we are to fear God there is no doubt about that. This healthy reverence and awe of God will work for our advantage in that we will become holy and pure and righteous outwardly as God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure...

Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The work wrought in us from God needs to come out in our behavior. This is what it means to "work out" salvation. This is not teaching salvation by works and it is not implying that the elect can fall away. Keeping the elect requires God putting fear in their hearts (Jer 32:40).

Another passage brought up...

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

This is referring to false teachers and we are told a few times in 1 John that they were never born again...

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, [b]does not have God[/b]; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, [b]but they were not really of us[/b]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; [b]no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him[/b].

This takes on the idea of practicing sin...nobody who is born of God will practice sin...1 John 5:18 is in the context of the "mortal sin verse" - 1 John 5:16. One who has been born of God will NOT fall away utterly.

Rather than being overcome by the world (2Peter 2:20-22)...those born of God will overcome the world...

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

This brings us to Hebrews 10:26-29...

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Again...from teh scriptures passages in 1 John...this is not a JUSTIFIED believer that has fallen away. The fact that it mentions this..."...has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..." does not mean what you think it means...the word sanctified can be referring to Christ (John 17:19) and it can also be looked upon as a sanctification that was only perceived through the knowledge of the person falling away but not a reality. The interpretation that I hear from other Catholic people is overshadowed by Hebrews 10:14...

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Once true sanctification begins, it will continue (although the just man falls seven times but God upholds him with His hand). The justified WILL BE glorified...they WILL BE raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Phil 2:12 was brought up...

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

What is salvation in this case??? It is sanctification. Again - we are to fear God there is no doubt about that. This healthy reverence and awe of God will work for our advantage in that we will become holy and pure and righteous outwardly as God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure...

Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The work wrought in us from God needs to come out in our behavior. This is what it means to "work out" salvation. This is not teaching salvation by works and it is not implying that the elect can fall away. Keeping the elect requires God putting fear in their hearts (Jer 32:40).

Another passage brought up...

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

This is referring to false teachers and we are told a few times in 1 John that they were never born again...

2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, [b]does not have God[/b]; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, [b]but they were not really of us[/b]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; [b]no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him[/b].

This takes on the idea of practicing sin...nobody who is born of God will practice sin...1 John 5:18 is in the context of the "mortal sin verse" - 1 John 5:16. One who has been born of God will NOT fall away utterly.

Rather than being overcome by the world (2Peter 2:20-22)...those born of God will overcome the world...

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

This brings us to Hebrews 10:26-29...

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Again...from teh scriptures passages in 1 John...this is not a JUSTIFIED believer that has fallen away. The fact that it mentions this..."...has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..." does not mean what you think it means...the word sanctified can be referring to Christ (John 17:19) and it can also be looked upon as a sanctification that was only perceived through the knowledge of the person falling away but not a reality. The interpretation that I hear from other Catholic people is overshadowed by Hebrews 10:14...

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Once true sanctification begins, it will continue (although the just man falls seven times but God upholds him with His hand). The justified WILL BE glorified...they WILL BE raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(cont'd)

[OneForTruth]

Matthew 7:21 was also brought up...this only stregthens our position...

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Those who take part in the church and experience the same graces that the elect do by the working of the Holy Spirit (from the outside)...hearing the word of God...being around other Christians...tasting the heavenly gift through knowledge/understanding etc...and then fall away (or, in some cases, remain until the last judgment)...NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN. He never knew them. They were not chosen of God - they were not of the sheep.

Another reference:

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, [b]is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

How true...keeping commandments is not something the elect need to do - they WILL do it as explained in verse 3. We know that we are in Him is we keep His commandments...this is one test to give yourself if you are making certain of His calling and choosing you (2 Peter 2:10). Verse 4 continues to strengthen our position...that people who do not give evidence of salvation are LIARS and the truth is NOT in them. They are bad fish caught up in the dragnet of the gospel invitation (parable of the dragnet - Matthew 13).

ALSO BROUGHT UP:

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Exactly...those who are born of God will not practice sin - they will not fall away. They are saved and saved forever.

1Jo 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Again - another evidence of salvation...

Holiness is not the way to Christ - Christ is the way to holiness. None of this FRUIT is possible unless one has been chosen from before the foundation of the world and then, inevitably, comes to Christ in repentance and faith...seeing the glory of Christ and the treasure that He is...placing all faith and trust in His bloody sacrifice for their salvation...when this takes place, they are justified (which is an event that begins the Christian life) and are now a new creature...to be sanctified by faith/by the word of God and the Holy Spirit.

In Christ, Link

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1401156' date='Oct 12 2007, 07:45 AM']Ted Haggard?

The dozens of other prominent Evangelical leaders who preach about moral living but go against their own message behind closed doors?

I am not condemning them for this. Their sins lie between them and God, not between them and me. What I do condemn is the way so many Evangelical Christians try to force that sort of behaviour into the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mould.

"He wasn't a true Christian to start with. He must not have got saved properly." [Question: If professing belief in Jesus is all that is required for salvation, how is it possible not to do it 'properly'? Doesn't that suggest that some effort is required on the part of the believer? Co-operation with divine grace, perhaps?]

"He wasn't cut off from God. He's just backsliding." [So, when you 'get saved', sin becomes like an elastic band - you can sin as much as you like and trust that the band will ping back eventually? What kind of shoddy excuse for holiness is this?]

"He's saved, so he can't commit a mortal sin. His sins may be bad, but they aren't deadly." [This is perhaps the most illogical one of all, as it suggests that Jesus' sacrifice changed the nature of sin itself rather than the life of the believer.]

Jesus is our holiness. Our only holiness. We know that we have nothing by our own merit. This is expressed by one short, poignant, powerful line of a prayer that we pray during every Mass: "You alone are the Holy One." No Catholic believes that DIY salvation is possible - this is a myth, distorted by countless Protestant games of Chinese whispers and aided by strains of Jansenism that still haven't entirely died out in parts of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church describes salvation as ‘the most excellent work of God’s love – the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being’. This makes it quite clear that salvation for Catholics is something that is freely given and freely received, not something that we buy or earn. But if we accept that salvation is God’s love at its most sublime, there is no way it can be detached from our actions, prayer, or relationships with others…because God’s love holds all those things in being.

To use an imperfect metaphor, our understanding of salvation is like ballroom dancing. The whole dance is of God's composition; we have nothing to offer it except our co-operation. Jesus is not going to drag us round the dance floor against our will. We have to make a conscious choice to follow Him, to tread where He treads, to move where He moves, to live as He lives. It takes effort to respond to love. But while the Evangelical Protestant looks at this effort and sees it as draining and onerous, the Catholic sees it as a celebration dance.

Fear of Hell plays a large part in Evangelical Protestant faith and practice, which is perhaps why so many Evangelical Protestants see the Catholic hope of Heaven as so frightening and pitiful. But we are not afraid, because that hope does not exist as a tributary to a terror of Hell - it comes to us as a gift of the Holy Spirit. And what a gift!

A Protestant friend who was out to convert me once said, "Vicky, there is nothing better than knowing that you are saved." I replied, "No. There is nothing better than knowing that you are loved."

God's love is the only certainty I need, which is why I am very much at peace when I say, "I live in hope of Heaven."[/quote]

Again - one who has been born of God WILL NOT fall away. 1 John clearly says this. He that has ears to hear - let him hear.