Simple Question

[jesussaves]

is jesus your savior?

it's a simple question.

i would think you want to say yes? if you're like most catholics you do, even though you don't follow your own belief to its logical conclusion. (which is probably why catholics are known for wretched states such as martin luther was before the reformation)

if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.

if you only believe it's a possibility that you'll make it to heaven, then you have no right to declare that jesus is your savior. he only MIGHT be.

now, you might argue that someone pulling you from drowning by rope would be your savior, perhaps in a twisted sense of the meaning. but, he's not your savior till you're safe. let's not mince words here.

so i repeat, is jesus YOUR savior?

[chelsea]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM']is jesus your savior?

it's a simple question.

i would think you want to say yes? if you're like most catholics you do, even though you don't follow your own belief to its logical conclusion. (which is probably why catholics are known for wretched states such as martin luther was before the reformation)

if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.

if you only believe it's a possibility that you'll make it to heaven, then you have no right to declare that jesus is your savior. he only MIGHT be.

now, you might argue that someone pulling you from drowning by rope would be your savior, perhaps in a twisted sense of the meaning. but, he's not your savior till you're safe. let's not mince words here.

so i repeat, is jesus YOUR savior?[/quote]

Yes, Jesus IS my savior, but if i dont act like it, then i have no right to enter into Heaven with Him. If i call him my savior and go kill a person, i dont deserve to be with Him in perfection.

[jesussaves]

my friend, you apparently deem yourself clean when you are not. we are all guilty of sins that separate us from God. you are no different than a murderer, at least in as far as your sins demand your sentence of hell.

jesus told the man, when asked what he must do to be saved, keep the commandments. the man in his pride said that he has. the fact is, that no one has. so, jesus pointed this out indirectly, and told the man to go sell everything he had. the man wept, because he knew he was putting money before God, in violation of the commandment to having no other gods besides God. jesus knows that the standard is to keep the commandments, but also knows that no one can do it, and made an example with that young man.

Edited October 12, 2007 by jesussaves

[jeffpugh]

actually, Jesus in that situation wasn't condemning the man for saying he was following the commandments, but he was stepping up the measurement of holiness for him. Jesus was calling the man to join Him and His followers. It was a gift, really, though the man indeed couldn't handle the fact that he had to lose his stuff... not saying that's a good thing, but I guess it leads to a bit of pride there. Point being, the verse you referred to didn't prove your point, but make it clear that one has to strive for holiness. Also, John says in his epistles that some sins are "mortal" and others are not. In other words, sins aren't all the same, though they do tremendous damage nonetheless.

Jesus is my Saviour. I hope for heaven in the end. I just need to strive to do His will every day, and should I say, do it with humility and joy.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1400966' date='Oct 11 2007, 08:21 PM']actually, Jesus in that situation wasn't condemning the man for saying he was following the commandments, but he was stepping up the measurement of holiness for him. Jesus was calling the man to join Him and His followers. It was a gift, really, though the man indeed couldn't handle the fact that he had to lose his stuff... not saying that's a good thing, but I guess it leads to a bit of pride there. Point being, the verse you referred to didn't prove your point, but make it clear that one has to strive for holiness. Also, John says in his epistles that some sins are "mortal" and others are not. In other words, sins aren't all the same, though they do tremendous damage nonetheless.

Jesus is my Saviour. I hope for heaven in the end. I just need to strive to do His will every day, and should I say, do it with humility and joy.[/quote]

Yes...but will a born again believer fall into mortal sin? The context tells us..."No"...

1 John 5:16-18 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18 [b]We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.[/b]

Not that those born agina never sin - they never commit sin unto death...they are kept by the power of God.

[mortify]

Peace in Christ,

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 07:57 PM']if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.[/quote]

There is no question over whether Jesus is our Savior, this has always been taught by the Church, since the time of Christ and the Apostles, and if anyone doubts this they can look up "Savior" in the Catechism, which explicitly states Christ is the Savior numerous times.

The question is what is our role in salvation, here are some verses to consider:

[color="#0000FF"]"but he who stands firm to the end [b]will be saved[/b]."
Matthew 24:13

"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you [b]continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be[u] cut off[/u][/b]."
Romans 11:22


"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to [b][u]work out[/u] your salvation[/b] with fear and trembling,"
Philippians 2:12

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."
2 Peter 2:210-21

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
Hebrews 10:26-29

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [b]only he who does the will of my Father[/b] who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21

"We know that we have come to know him [b]if[/b] we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a [b]liar[/b], and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [b]Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.[/b]"
1 John 2: 3-6

"[b]No one who is [u]born of God[/u] will continue to sin[/b], because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
1 John 3: 9-10

"Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them."
1 John 3: 24[/color]

[jesussaves]

[quote]Jesus is my Saviour. I hope for heaven in the end.[/quote]

non sequiter.

Edited October 12, 2007 by jesussaves

[mortify]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400992' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:05 PM']non sequiter.[/quote]

Say you really want to go to Rome but are too impoverished to do so, so I, out of my kind heart charitably decide to provide you with a first class ticket on Air Italia, with free room and board in a beautiful hotel, and a visa to stay as long as you want. Even though I provided you with the means of getting there, you still have to physically utilized what I have given you and apply them so that you may make it to your destination. If for some reason you decide not to go, or perhaps you break some law and lose your visa, that does not void my act of charity towards you.

[dairygirl4u2c]

what this boils down to is two different analogies being used by both sides.

one side, jesussaves, says that it's like the rope where you're not really saved. a catholic would say that they are on the harbor, but can fall off with their sins. i guess jesussaves would respond to that by saying that if you're not guaranteed to stay on the harbor, you're not really saved, even though in a sense you are.

i guess i didn't resolve anything, but these analogies i think are helpful.

[jesussaves]

[quote name='mortify' post='1401009' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:22 PM']Say you really want to go to Rome but are too impoverished to do so, so I, out of my kind heart charitably decide to provide you with a first class ticket on Air Italia, with free room and board in a beautiful hotel, and a visa to stay as long as you want. Even though I provided you with the means of getting there, you still have to physically utilized what I have given you and apply them so that you may make it to your destination. If for some reason you decide not to go, or perhaps you break some law and lose your visa, that does not void my act of charity towards you.[/quote]

in your analogy, jesus only gave you the means to save yourself. you are the savior of yourself, and he is helping. you can't make the statement that he is your savior, cause he is not unless you're in rome already.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM']is jesus your savior?

it's a simple question.

i would think you want to say yes? if you're like most catholics you do, even though you don't follow your own belief to its logical conclusion. (which is probably why catholics are known for wretched states such as martin luther was before the reformation)[/quote]That's an odd claim you're making. So it's my fault that Martin Luther was a wretched sinner?

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM']if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.[/quote]According to Holy Scriptures, Jesus is the Savior of all Mankind. Saint Paul is pretty clear on this point ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans5.htm#v18"]link[/url]):[quote name='Romans 5:18']...just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act [u]acquittal and life came to all[/u].[/quote]Now, assuming you're not a Universalist, some of the people spoken of by St. Paul didn't accept Jesus Christ. "Aquital and life came to all"...some just rejected it. Make sense?

Then, there's this verse ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm#v14"]link[/url]):[quote name='1 John 4:14']Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as [u]savior of the world[/u].[/quote]Can we agree that this statement can be true, even as some souls will be eternally lost? Later in this passage, it speaks of us remaining in God's love. It's a sad fact that not all Christians remain faithful through their lives. Unfortunately, someone who spends his life sinning to the extreme without repentance won't get a free pass because he answered an altar call as a teenager. I'd ask for you to show me otherwise in Holy Scriptures; but, since altar calls aren't even Scriptural, I'll leave it at that...

Another verse I'm too lazy to look up: "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord" will inherit the Kingdom...kind of a problem for those who think that "accepting Jesus" makes salvation a done-deal.

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1400958' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM']if you only believe it's a possibility that you'll make it to heaven, then you have no right to declare that jesus is your savior. he only MIGHT be.[/quote]Again, if you hold your strict word definitions, you've got to deal with the consequence that the quoted verses in Holy Scriptures would be in error. Is that your position?

[mortify]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1401012' date='Oct 11 2007, 09:25 PM']in your analogy, jesus only gave you the means to save yourself. you are the savior of yourself, and he is helping. you can't make the statement that he is your savior, cause he is not unless you're in rome already.[/quote]

Utilizing the means by cooperating with the Grace He gives is already part of being saved

The early Church fathers likened the Church to Noah's ark, and themselves as stranded seamen saved from the ocean's fury when the Ark came by them and took them aboard. In the sense of these early Christians, becoming a member of the Body of Christ, the Church, was embarking on salvation even though they had not reached their destination yet. Whereas before they would have been lost, there is now at least a guarantee that if they abide in the Ark they would reach their destination (Heaven) and interestingly enough, the Church is the foundation of Christ's Heavenly Kingdom on earth. So in relation to my analogy, Jesus not only provides the means (meriting salvation for us, satisfying for our sins, offering us the Holy spirit, teaching us truth, etc) but He also provides for us the foundation of that destination, that we may have some comfort in the guarantee of receiving what no eye has seen and no ear has heard. So in a spiritual sense, those in the Church are in Heaven.

["Kyrie eleison"]

JS,

Sure, Jesus died to save me, he is my saviour, [b]but[/b] I must [b]work[/b] out my salvation, for everyone who believes in the Lord will not have the pearly gates open to him.

Jesus Christ Himself said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; [b]but[/b] he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

[quote]it's a simple question.[/quote]

Not as simple as you want to believe.

The [b]but[/b] in Matthew is CONDITIONAL. So, again, I believe his death has SAVED ME, [b]but[/b] I must also do my part. There is an ACTION involved in doing his will and it is [b]not [/b]only believing and professing in the Lord Jesus Christ as my saviour.

Then there is Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen,[b] BUT[/b] the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; [b]OTHERWISE[/b] you also will be cut off."

Again, JS, the[b] BUT[/b] in Matthew is the condition that you ABIDE in his GOODNESS, [b]OTHERWISE[/b], you too will be cut off.

[quote]if you say yes, then you should not be saying, as most catholics do, all this stuff about how you might or might not make it to heaven. you should say that you will be saved, cause he's your savior.[/quote]

Even Paul states that those who think they will stand to take heed.

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." 1Cor 10:12

[quote]so i repeat, is jesus YOUR savior?[/quote]

So, just because you or I state that Jesus my saviour, it doesn't ASSURE us our salvation!

Edited October 12, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[cmotherofpirl]

I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='mortify' post='1400986' date='Oct 11 2007, 07:56 PM']Peace in Christ,
There is no question over whether Jesus is our Savior, this has always been taught by the Church, since the time of Christ and the Apostles, and if anyone doubts this they can look up "Savior" in the Catechism, which explicitly states Christ is the Savior numerous times.

The question is what is our role in salvation, here are some verses to consider:

[color="#0000FF"]"but he who stands firm to the end [b]will be saved[/b]."
Matthew 24:13

"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you [b]continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be[u] cut off[/u][/b]."
Romans 11:22
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to [b][u]work out[/u] your salvation[/b] with fear and trembling,"
Philippians 2:12

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."
2 Peter 2:210-21

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
Hebrews 10:26-29

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [b]only he who does the will of my Father[/b] who is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21

"We know that we have come to know him [b]if[/b] we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a [b]liar[/b], and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [b]Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.[/b]"
1 John 2: 3-6

"[b]No one who is [u]born of God[/u] will continue to sin[/b], because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
1 John 3: 9-10

"Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them."
1 John 3: 24[/color][/quote]

Mortify,

What wonderful selections of Scripture you referenced. I'm sad to see that there has been little attempt to dialogue about these verses from the other side, but seeing as the references are pretty straight forward, I am not at all surprised.

I was an Evangelical for 23 years, and when I was in Christian school and later at a Christian college, I remember having many such debates just as Protestant vs. Protestant. They never seemed to go very far, because people only wanted to discuss [i]their[/i] particular verses and would never discuss other verses that seemed to contradict theirs. And ultimately, there was no ability to make an authoritative judgment about Scripture because no one could claim their divinely-inspired interpretation had any more weight than someone else's. So in the end, whoever disagrees with you, you simply had to believe that they were not understanding Scripture properly and therefore, their faith was flawed.

Here's a verse that is a major stumbling block to the proposed topic, Mark 16:16 -

[quote]He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.[/quote]

The majority of Protestant denominations (how many out of the 30,000 is anybody's guess) do not believe baptism to be anything but symbolic. Yet Jesus clearly said belief + baptism right here. And then again, take a passage like 1 Cor 13:13 -

[quote]So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.[/quote]

Protestant churches teach that faith in Jesus is all you need, and yet here we have Paul teaching that love is even greater than faith???

Here's the heart of the issue: Christians all agree that belief in Jesus is what gets you to heaven. Yes, that seems "simple." However, no two Christian churches can agree on what exactly "belief in Jesus" means. If they all agreed, then there would be no need for thousands of churches under slightly different banners and practices.

Jesus died as our Savior, and His death granted the chance of eternal life forwards and backwards through time to [u]all[/u] people (John 3:16). What does it mean to truly believe in Him and accept this gift of salvation? It's not just one verse. If it were, we wouldn't need 27 books in the New Testament. Belief in Christ involves so much of us that it fills pages and pages of radical thoughts like [i]Eat my Body, Drink my Blood[/i] and [i]be born again with water and the spirit[/i] and [i]Forgive those who hate you.[/i] And yet, faith is also so simple that the Church got along for decades before the Bible was even completed (and centuries before the books were finalized). And in many ways, it's like being a child, particularly as it involves trust. Trust in God. Trust in Jesus. And trust in the Spirit that guides the Church Jesus left us behind.

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said:

[quote]And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[/quote]

Those that decided to start their own churches in the Reformation (and later) believed that, indeed, the gates of hell had prevailed and there was no more [C]hurch we could rely on. If that's so, then Jesus lied to us. That, or He was a lunatic.

The third option, and what I came to understand after 23 years of fighting tooth and nail, is that He is neither. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. And if we are to believe one Scripture passage that has been protected and handed down to us from Holy Church, by the authority passed on from our Lord, then we have to consider them all. Not just the ones that we like or are the easiest. It takes a lot of humility, but it also involves great joy.

peace. - Papa