God

[cathoholic_anonymous]

GodChild, I have written a series of short articles on the relationship between faith and terrible suffering, based on my friendship with a fourteen-year-old girl who suffered repeated rape at the hands of her Scoutmaster. It is part of a blog for non-Christians, so it's not too theologically daunting.

[url="http://www.rejesus.co.uk/blog/?p=70"]Faith is a Verb[/url]

[url="http://www.rejesus.co.uk/blog/?p=105"]Mercy Killing[/url]

[url="http://www.rejesus.co.uk/blog/?p=114"]"The hope that is in you."[/url]

God willing, they will bring some clarity to your questions.

[123]

[quote]A child gets abused by clergy but God allows it cause its the best way to draw others to Him?

A woman gets gang raped and brutalised but God allows it cause it will best draw people to Him?

A child gets assaulted throughout their childhood but God allows it cause it best draws people to Him?[/quote]

For years Christians and the Church have struggled with the co existence of evil and God. Some believe that if God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good then he would know evil exists, want evil to be gone, and have the power to destroy evil.

The logical argument for theorizing the co-existence of evil and God is called a Theodicy (a defense of God.) One of the greatest in the Church is St. Augustine's theodicy.

[u][b] Augustinian Theodicy[/u][/b]

- Human beings were created in a paradise
- Human beings fell from their state of perfection by their own sinful acts
- Through their own free actions, human being introduced moral evil into the world.
- Humans hope to regain their lost state of paradise (Ex.) Salvation
- Death is a consequence of sin
- At the eschaton God judges human free action on the basis of merit, and on that basis of merit he perfectly, and justly causes good persons to be saved and evil persons to be
properly punished.

Your argument is reasonable and understandable. However, the one guilty of the rape will be punished. Its not an object of God instantaneously striking them down right there for the crime, though that would be nice, it most like will not happen every time. As humans our problem is that we have no patience for the heavenly due process of law. When someone hurts us we want absolution NOW! If we don't have it we wonder about things like God allowing this evil to happen or slopping all these accusation on the heavens because we are hurt and we are lusting for revenge and absolution. The problem with this is, like all anger, it goes out of control and we start believing the theoretical spawn of our indignation.

Edited October 12, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[GodChild]

I have thought it over, re-read your responses and still I must admit, I do not agree with what you are saying. Maybe there is a miscommunication, maybe not, however, I absolutely believe that God does not and never has anything to do with evil. The one responsible for evil is the person who does the evil and Satan, the Father of evil and hatred. That is the origin, the cause of evil - not God.

[quote]The question is whether we will ask for that help, or will be too proud to ask for help, and too proud to admit that whoever made the solar system might be smarter than me. The pride is very good at masking itself, too: "I KNOW that a good god would never permit this..." Really? Am I as good as a good god would be? Am I even as good as a good nextdoor neighbor or husband or writer would be? Hmm...[/quote] I don't claim to be good, i don't think I'm good and I don;t think the "pride" accusation has anything to do with my belief that God is not evil .... period.

God is my Father and I am His child - i KNOW Him. God does not DO evil, he does not CONDONE evil, he does not UTILISE evil as a means to an end - He has nothing to do with evil. All that God does is true to Himself - all that he does is good and right and just. He brings beauty to situations that are ugly, he brings hope where there is despair, he brings love where there is hatred - but he does not bring evil!

Agh! I know this - and the constant association made between God and evil and his part in it is WRONG. It's the primal reason why I left Christianity.

When someone tells me that God is somewhat implicated in evil and injustice it leaves me shell shocked. It really disturbs me, to the point I have to take meds to calm down .

I AGREE that
- God is Love
- God is Gentle
- God is pure
- God is Holy
- God is intelligent

What I do not agree with is that God partakes in evil ... that before every injustice occurs God says "yes do it, this is going to serve my purpose" ... God HATES evil, it makes Him sick, probably a billion times more than it outrages me
The one responsible for evil, the one who instigates evil and the one who says "yes" to evil is the person who does it and SATAN

I'll tell you my story ... I have met alot of carp ppl in my life - alot of ppl who mistreated me, who attacked me and left me deformed as a result, violated me, ppl who judge me on my appearance, and stupid "christians" who have loud mouths and zero compassion ... I live constantly with depression, panic attacks, post-trauma flashbacks and scars from the days i injured myself.

Let me tell you - these things did not happen to me because God WANTED it to happen so i will be drawn closer to Him. They do not happen because it is part of God's plan for me - that God sat down and calculated it all. It happened because people DO evil things because they mimic Satan. God wept when I was hurt, he felt all the outrage I felt, all the pain, all the humiliation

He is the ONLY one who has bought beauty to my life - he is the ONLY one who told me I am beautiful. He is the only one who has helped me walk a mile when I felt like I couldn't take a single step ....

People have free-will and they abuse it - God DOES NOT want ppl to use their free-will for evil. He HATES it!

[quote]"I KNOW that a good god would never permit this..." Really?[/quote]
YES really ... I know God does [b]not[/b] permit this - THATS WHY PEOPLE GO TO HELL

There - its out I really had to get out

That's what I believe - I don't care if its heresy or whatever - if the "christian" god is going to send me to hell because I refuse to believe God is evil and has anything to do with evil - then so be it.


PS: got a little emotional writing the post but it is intended with charity and not as an attack or offence to anyone. I love you guys who don't give up on me though I'm difficult sometimes

[Aloysius]

seems to me you read something entirely different out of those posts than I do. I agree 100% that God does not partake in evil, that God hates evil, that God abhors evil.

Understanding why he tolerates it instead of making one sweep of his omnipotence to wipe out any and all evil doers is all we were talking about. The reason he allows that is love for us, love for our free will (love directed only at the immense good of the free choice for good, God has only hatred for the use of the free will to choose evil)

Really, we'd agree with all you said about not attributing evil to God. But then the question is: if God is omnipotent, and there is indeed evil, why is this? the answer is in all we have said above; He doesn't want evil, He is not the source of any evil, He tolerates it and works through it to undo it completely in the end, in the final eternal end.

[quote]People have free-will and they abuse it - God DOES NOT want ppl to use their free-will for evil. He HATES it![/quote]
This follows the Thomistic (Aquinas) understanding of free will; "free will" is only truly free will and only truly loved by God when it brings about. choosing evil is not an exercise in free will, it's an abuse of the power and potentiality that free will gives you, the only truly free choice is good.

Really, I can't see how anything you said could be heretical; God is not the source of evil, nor the direct source of sufferings. He works through these realities for the final ultimate good.

You have this experience of a God who deals out evil, deals out wrath arbitrarily; let me tell you: this is not the experience of me, nor most Catholics on this board. God is a loving Father who takes care of us, and permits the evil things that happen to us (as opposed to stopping them with His omnipotence) in order that we may become stronger.

[123]

[quote]I'll tell you my story ... I have met alot of carp ppl in my life - alot of ppl who mistreated me, who attacked me and left me deformed as a result, violated me, ppl who judge me on my appearance, and stupid "christians" who have loud mouths and zero compassion ... I live constantly with depression, panic attacks, post-trauma flashbacks and scars from the days i injured myself.[/quote]

We all have none some bad eggs, and pham's not trying to put the damper on your personal feelings. However, we cannot base the actions of God on the attacks we have recieved in our lives, and our personal feelings.

[quote]The one responsible for evil, the one who instigates evil and the one who says "yes" to evil is the person who does it and SATAN[/quote]

So, my questions is this:

1. The devil would have to [b]be in more places than one[/b] to commit more than one evil act...So therefore the devil is also everywhere at one time. Like God

2. He would also have to [b]know[/b] of all evil actions in the world at one time for all of them to happen at random or at the same time. This also makes the devil all knowing of bad things. Like God.

3. And he would have to have [b]power[/b] over the wind, and the storms, tornadoes, hurricanes and viruses, also cancer, and other sicknesses that can kill humans. This practically makes him all powerful. Like God.

So far the devil has alot of the same Characteristics of God. Does this make the devil like a god? Be careful to not deify the devil, he doesn't do all the wrong things because then that makes the human race totally innocent, and they leave God and the Devil to take all the blame.

Edited October 12, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[GodChild]

[quote]1. The devil would have to be in more places than one to commit more than one evil act...So therefore the devil is also everywhere at one time. Like God

2. He would also have to know of all evil actions in the world at one time for all of them to happen at random or at the same time. This also makes the devil all knowing of bad things. Like God.

3. And he would have to have power over the wind, and the storms, tornadoes, hurricanes and viruses, also cancer, and other sicknesses that can kill humans. This practically makes him all powerful. Like God.

So far the devil has alot of the same Characteristics of God. Does this make the devil like a god? Be careful to not deify the devil, he doesn't do all the wrong things because then that makes the human race totally innocent, and they leave God and the Devil to take all the blame.[/quote]

Hmm never though of that. I don't deify the devil. I don't believe the devil is everywhere - when I say Satan I mean demons, and from my understanding there are many of them

On point 3 [quote]3. And he would have to have power over the wind, and the storms, tornadoes, hurricanes and viruses, also cancer, and other sicknesses that can kill humans. This practically makes him all powerful. Like God.[/quote]

I think there is a distinction between 'suffering' and 'evil'. It may seem bizarre but I do not believe suffering is the same as evil .... someone may suffer but that is not the same as evil

The things mentioned in point 3 are things of suffering - I believe that God makes use of suffering and allows suffering because it builds character, strengthens us, makes us realize we are only human, and humbles us. Furthermore, I know from my own experience ... suffering breaks our hearts open. Suffering - united to God and His grace - transforms our hearts from stone into flesh.

[quote]Be careful to not deify the devil, he doesn't do all the wrong things because then that makes the human race totally innocent, and they leave God and the Devil to take all the blame[/quote] Firstly God is never to blame for evil - secondly everything is not just "the devil's fault" because human's have free will and are responsible for their own actions ... i don't believe I said the devil alone is to blame for evil

[GodChild]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1401133' date='Oct 12 2007, 06:20 PM']God is a loving Father who takes care of us, and permits the evil things that happen to us (as opposed to stopping them with His omnipotence) in order that we may become stronger.[/quote]

I believe God is a loving Father who takes care of us and permits "suffering" to happen to us (as opposed to stopping it with his omnipotence) in order that we may become stronger.

[123]

I believe this also...And the Church teaches exactly what you stated.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1401466' date='Oct 12 2007, 09:00 PM']I believe God is a loving Father who takes care of us and permits "suffering" to happen to us (as opposed to stopping it with his omnipotence) in order that we may become stronger.[/quote]

Yes... this is the Christian idea of God... where do we disagree? I think possibly when people start talking in more theological terms you maybe misunderstand them and think we are associating God as the cause of suffering... not the case at all... Catholics don't believe God causes suffering, He merely permits it.

[GodChild]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1401599' date='Oct 13 2007, 04:57 PM']Yes... this is the Christian idea of God... where do we disagree? I think possibly when people start talking in more theological terms you maybe misunderstand them and think we are associating God as the cause of suffering... not the case at all... Catholics don't believe God causes suffering, He merely permits it.[/quote]

Thank God

[quote]Evil is not a mystery to many people, in either sense of the word. It is just upsetting. But for people who believe that God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful (most Jews, Muslims, and Christians) evil and suffering are a mystery in the first sense ("Why did God let this happen?"). For Christians, though, it is also a mystery in the second sense (a place where we can meet God).[/quote]
I believe this also - however - I believe "suffering" is a place we can meet God - I do [b]not [/b]believe "evil" is a place where we can meet God

[123]

[quote]I believe this also - however - I believe "suffering" is a place we can meet God - I do not believe "evil" is a place where we can meet God[/quote]

Of course none of us believe we can meet God in evil, since evil is the absence of God.
You have a very honnorable position to the glory of God, hang on to that and you will go far in your spiritual life.