God

[GodChild]

I would like to discuss with someone "who" God is ... and I would like to do this on a 'lay-man's' level, not a theologians level, as I am NOT a theologian. So please don't quote massive extracts of Aquinas, Augustine etc (little bits are ok) and please don;t use "big" words every two seconds ... like I said, I am not a theologian so it is not my area of specialty. Besides, I don't want a philosophical discussion, just a lay-mans discussion on 'who' God is.

[u]Who[/u] is God in Christianity. I am confused, thus I find the Christian God bizarre.

To demonstrate my confusion:
God is Love - "God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them" 1 John 4:16
God is Evil - "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you" Deut 20 10:14

Of particular abhorrence to me is the treatment of women condoned by the Christian God
God & Rape - "Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city" Zac 14 1:2

Sex Slaves - Exodus 21:7-11
Women as 'spoils of war' - Judges 5:30

Kill for 'god' - "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you" Deu 13: 13-19

These things are not compatible - God cannot be love and evil and condone and assist in evil things, whilst still claiming to be 'love'
so who is God? Evil and God cannot be One - unless in Christianity God and Evil can be one?

[Aloysius]

God is not evil. period.

God, for purposes of teaching people where they were at, has used their cultural practices for a greater good. When it comes to the mandate to exterminate all the people, all archeaologicla evidence (as well as textual evidence) indicates that this mandate was not carried out literally; rather, the "killing of every man, woman, and child" of a culture was seen as the complete ending of their pagan ways; they were to cease their pagan ways in the present (every man and woman) and their future (women and children). One must remember: these were cultures that practiced human (child) sacrifice. The traditional understanding was that any culture that sacrificed their own children was sacrificing their right to claim that land for their future.

All killing for God in the Old Testament came in the context of a just war, waged against peoples who practiced child-sacrifice.

As regards to God allowing Jerusalem to be conquered and all the evils, including rape, that would come from that... He is not condoning rape, simply describing the consequence of disobedience. It's not a pointless arbitrary punishment, their actions bring about these bad things the way cutting yourself would bring about death. one might as well call God evil for permitting death to follow the action of shooting a gun.

The cultural aspects of female "inequality" is really a case of cultural concepts being fundamentally different now than they were back then. there were injustices, to be sure, but God dealt with people's cultures at the level that they understood it, and set into motion teachings that would transform the ancient societies into ones where there was much more justice. In any event, ancient Jewish society was very matri-focal and respective of the rights of women.

Jesus gave the reason for why God negotiated with these things during the time of the Old Covenant when He talked about the reason men were allowed to divorce women: it was because of the hardness of their hearts. God wasn't establishing slavery or rape, and in fact was beginning to temper it and show the israelites the wrongness of it by undermining it; but he was dealing with the hardness of the people's hearts, and so things were written in the scriptures as a result of the people being unable to completely transcend the times in which they live.

When you look at Catholic teaching, you can see that the Church clearly interprets these scriptures as meaning that God was negotiating with an imperfect culture, putting things in motion to establish right moral order whilst allowing certain evils to continue because of the hardness of the peoples' hearts.

[GodChild]

From what you said, what are you saying about 'who' God is? Are you saying that God puts up with evil and allows it because of people's hardness of heart - please explain to me, how is putting up with evil different to indifference or condoning via silence? and what does it say about 'who' God is. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but thats the essence I want to get at - who is He. the point of those scripture passages was to demonstrate my understanding of a God who appears to be contradictory. You said in another post that no-one knows of the catholic God I'm talking about. I've gotten to a point where I'm ready to listen without the anger I had some months back .... so who is He?

Are you saying He - interacts with people at their level and tolerates their evil because of culture or hardness of heart? God settles for less?

[Maggyie]

God does not settle for less. But He doesn't turn His back on people when they don't measure up, when they just can't make the grade. The teaching about divorce that Al cites is a perfect example. God was never "okay" with divorce. In the age before Christ came, however, He wasn't going to just break the covenant He made because His children stank at making moral choices. The moral dicta in the Old Testament can be seen gradually tugging the chosen people toward the redemptive moment of Jesus Christ, when as the Gospel says, the old law will not be "overturned" (because, after all, it wasn't [i]condoning [/i]evil like rape, genocide, or divorce!) but instead will be fulfilled and made whole.

This is the God of Abraham, who pursues us, searches for us and reaches out to us even in our hardness of heart and our sin.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Maggie

[GodChild]

so your saying he is personal? I think God is personal. I find it hard to believe God would create a world and then have nothing to do with it as is believed in deism. Is that who God is? Personal?

[quote]"God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life"[/quote]- I got that from the Catechism ... when I read this I think of a parent - the Father

[Aloysius]

When I say he puts up with evil and meets people where they are, I mean this:

Firstly, free will. God gave humans free will and respects that free will above everything. It would be a greater evil that one human being is deprived of his free will than all the suffering which has ever been in the world.

The freest will, of course, is the will which chooses the good; the capacity to choose evil is merely a consequence of the will being free, not an act of freedom in itself (more of an act of slavery to sin).

Meeting people where they are in their culture doesn't mean He settles; He certainly called everyone in the Old Testament through whom He worked to a life of holiness, the hardness of their heart was an obstacle to that; the hardness of their heart being an act of their free will. The examples from scripture of killing? That happened in the context of just wars, it was establishing the safety of God's chosen people in that land and putting an end to child sacrifice by taking away future claim to the land from those who would sacrifice their future (their children). The cultural aspects of ancient Israel talked about in the scriptures: for all these reasons of free will and such, it's something that He did not directly interfere with. Now, a lot of it comes out of our own modern culture being unable to really understand life in ancient culture, it's hard to understand that and sometimes our first reaction is to call something "evil" which, in the context of ancient life, would not have been as evil as we like to judgmentally make it out to be... same way we go around judging more traditional cultures from our own cultural perspectives... personally, I think we're terribly ethnocentric when we try to judge Arab cultures for the way women cover up in that society, as just one example. But there were certainly things going on in that culture that God was not indifferent towards, which were bad things; God simply worked within their culture, though, He helped the individuals who might have suffered because of those things because He loved them, and He set into motion a change in the culture which would result in the moral system of Christianity which would put a stop to all the evil parts of the ancient ways.

With all the evil in the world, it's easy to say, from our limited mortal capacity for understanding, 'wouldn't it just be better for God to put a stop to all these things before they happened?'... but it would not be better, God would be interfering in their free will, robbing them of the capacity for doing great good by forcing them into it (thus, they would not be doing good). It would also take away the means by which we can increase the strength of our wills, the means by which we can be purified.

God wants all to be saved, and all to be in perfect happiness in the end, as a loving Father would. He doesn't allow bad things to happen in the world for sadistic purposes, He allows them because out of them can be produced the greatest good possible: the free will and the purified man. The way a father who is rich might not want his son to be spoiled, and thus force him to work to establish himself (because it will make him a better person). Personally, I always felt that if I had just been given all this money me and my family and all the random grants I have are throwing at my college education, I could have established a pretty good life for myself... $120,000 over 4 years... seems like you could use that money to establish yourself in the world a lot easier than having to work through academia... but my parents want me to be strengthened by experience. It's not that they are in favor of, or causing, the big capitalist system that will drain the entire first half of my life with immense debts, it's that they tolerate it as something which will make me a better person.

[withouthavingseen]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1399783' date='Oct 9 2007, 06:22 AM']so your saying he is personal? I think God is personal. I find it hard to believe God would create a world and then have nothing to do with it as is believed in deism. Is that who God is? Personal?

- I got that from the Catechism ... when I read this I think of a parent - the Father[/quote]

Hi GodChild,

That paragraph of the Catechism (#1, unless I'm mistaken) is pretty much my favorite. It is a pretty darn excellent summary of the Christian Faith.

Yeah, you got it. God IS personal. Very much so. All the things that make a being a person: capacity for intelligence and free will - God's got them much more than we do.

The thing about God permitting moral evil is that if he were to block it, it would effectively negate the free will he gave us. Without free will, we would be unable to love Him and each other, which is precisely the reason why he made us in the first place. He made us with this freedom knowing that we could/would screw up. We have not failed to disappoint him, either, mind you. Every successive generation of human persons uses our personal freedom and our limited intelligence to make a bigger and bigger mess of things. But God uses his free will and intelligence to train us: first with the Law, then with the Old Testament Prophets, and finally with Jesus Christ and the saints (the ones who really get it). He wants to train us like a good Father wants to train his kids: not to be little robots, but to be grown men and women, competent, loving, and free. Those things are important because he wants not just to craft us into nice statues or puppets, but to nurture and train and discipline us into the sort of children who fit in well in his heavenly home. People who go to hell don't go because God sends them (not primarily, at least) but because, as miserable as hell is, they wouldn't be happy in heaven anyway. They'd get there and say charming things like, "This is boring!" and "Why do the waitresses wear so much clothing? Why don't they have any American food here?" You know the type. God, who is pretty darn smart, is able to arrange events without coercing people, by speaking into their hearts and minds, so that as many folks as possible will give up their old self-centered ways and give His way of love - made most fully obviously real in the life, death, and resurrection of His (natural, not adopted like us) Son Jesus Christ. That's the purpose of freedom, and why he tolerates sin. It's the cost of doing business, if you will. The necessary possibility of allowing people to love is that they might not.

Now, "God didn't save your kid from the drive-by shooting because he wants to teach us to love," isn't a very soothing thing to say to a grief stricken mother. What's the thing to say? Not much, in my experience. Words are about Truth and logic and reason and reasons. When people are grief-stricken, their hearts are too rent, sliced wide open, to be interested in such things at the particular moment. It is better to just be with them. After all, we have an example. The Father gave up his Son to the violence of men, so He knows what it means, even to lose a child. And when Jesus was dying on the Cross in anguish, feeling abandoned by everyone, crying, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" His mother did not try to convince Him that it was all part of God's plan, and that He should just hang tight. What did she do? She stood there, at the foot of the cross, and suffered with Him. That is the right response to suffering. God saw it in the world and He entered into it with us. We see suffering in the world, and instead of running from it or closing ourself off to it with glib (even if true) answers, we Christians (if we are serious about being Christ-like) enter into it. We weep with those who weep, we listen to and encourage the doubtful and weak, we self-sacrifice of ourselves for others' benefit, so that their condition might improve. That's how they know that God loves them, too.

So, some traits of God that I have experienced and that our Catholic Faith teaches us.

God is:
* Personal
* Intelligent
* The mind behind the universe
* What everything good is patterned, in some way, after
* LOVING, so immensely loving that it breaks your heart and makes you want to explode and sing and dance all at once, when you even begin to understand it
* GENTLE, so gentle that a cool summer breeze in the shade, or a baby's skin, is nothing - he never forces us, always invites
* STRICT - He has built a universe with cause-and-effect and will only rarely intervene to spare us the natural consequences of our bad actions - but amazingly enough, he does intervene, and more than we guess.
* GENEROUS - He gave His son, and that's just the top of the list of things He gives us; He always rewards generosity, and in amazing ways.
* ATTENTIVE - He will tend to our smallest needs, if we let Him
* CLEAR-HEADED - He is not manipulable, like most parents; begging and cajoling and bribing don't move Him one inch
* HARD - He knows what's best for us, and He's going to give it to us, even if we are not keen on it. Also, while He meets us halfway, He never fakes like that's good enough.
* PEACEFUL - such peace; the peace of a clear conscience and a heart that is on God's plan blows away any mere cessation of noise or traffic.
* VAST - everywhere at all times and knowing and loving all things, His brain, as it were, is so much more than ours that it is boggling
* SMALL - He has a way of popping up and noticing and drawing our attention to the smallest things, and doing it in the most gentle way.

Lot's of contradictions, huh, GodChild? That's because God is not like us. Even we are walking bundles of contradictions. That's because we're incoherent, and fractured in our personalities. Not so with God. We think of North and South as polar opposites, but they are really only different ends of the same pole, aren't they? That's how God is. He cannot be boxed into either "nice" or "mean", "strict" or "gentle". In every situation He acts in exactly the best way for all His children at once - even if they cannot see it. From our point of view, this can be very horrible, because that means that even when a kid gets killed in a drive-by, it was, for all involved the most perfect way to draw everyone involved to Himself, our ultimate good. To understand this means to go from seeing our child as "the best thing" to seeing God as the best thing, even when he acts in ways that seem bizarre or terrible. That's the hard part, the part we cannot do on our own.

In the spiritual life, God does sometimes play hide-and-seek with us, as it were. That's what the new book about Mother Teresa is about - how, when He was sure she was ready, He hid himself from her, as He had from His Son, to make possible a final purification of love, so they could love most perfectly - love without any return or good feelings. But, God knows when we are not ready for Him to hide from us. Like a good Dad playing hide-and-seek with His kids, he knows when they are afraid, or want to see Him, or get to know Him better. And when they call to Him, He will not fail to reveal Himself.

If you want to get to know God better, I recommend three things:

(1) Ask Him about Himself, and spend time listening for a response (prayer, for the serious about getting to know God);

(2) Read the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which, each in their distinct ways, are distillations of 2000-4000 years of wisdom from people who have gotten to know God very, very well and have wanted nothing more than to tell us about Him;

(3) Become involved, even only in an introductory way, in the life of those who have decided to follow him. That might mean going to Mass (if you are already Catholic, it should! if you are not Catholic, please refrain from going to receive communion... it feels awkward at first to not go when most others do, but its no big deal... sometimes even Catholics can't or don't go for any number of reasons... no biggie... it's just for people fully united to Jesus in His Church and who haven't seriously sinned since their last confession... that's a whole nother email). It might mean helping in some service work, especially with really poor people. I recommend finding a house of Mother Teresa's nuns (Missionaries of Charity) near you (you can google "Missionaries of Charity" and your zipcode... no joke!). It might mean joining a Bible study at a parish near you, even if your not a Christian.

You seem like you REALLY want to get to know God better. That is really AWESOME. I hope that I haven't muddled things for you, or made you angry (like you wrote you used to be). If they're anything else I do to help, lemme know.

[withouthavingseen]

Wow! That was a really long post. Sorry.

[123]

[quote]so your saying he is personal? I think God is personal. I find it hard to believe God would create a world and then have nothing to do with it as is believed in deism. Is that who God is? Personal?[/quote]

Deism is a respectable worldview, however the classical definition of Monotheism is that God is a personal God. Our religious brothers Muslims and Jews also believe in a monotheistic God whom doesn't just rule on a sociological level, but also on a personal level.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,[b]work out your salvation with fear and trembling.[/b]

Philippians 2:12

To work out our own salvation implies that the saving grace of God is not only for the community, but for the individual that makes up the community.

Edited October 9, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[GodChild]

Thanks for replying to me. There's a good deal I agree with cause I believe its true, however

[quote]From our point of view, this can be very horrible, because that means that even when a kid gets killed in a drive-by, it was, for all involved the most perfect way to draw everyone involved to Himself, our ultimate good. To understand this means to go from seeing our child as "the best thing" to seeing God as the best thing, even when he acts in ways that seem bizarre or terrible. That's the hard part, the part we cannot do on our own.[/quote] - that is indeed bizzare and very terrible

A child gets abused by clergy but God allows it cause its the best way to draw others to Him?

A woman gets gang raped and brutalised but God allows it cause it will best draw people to Him?

A child gets assaulted throughout their childhood but God allows it cause it best draws people to Him?

and that [b]is[/b] very bizzarre and disturbing. You say [quote]That's the hard part, the part we cannot do on our own[/quote], could you please explain this to me. I don't get it, to put it bluntly, yet this is precisely a central element of 'who' God is to Christians

[cmotherofpirl]

Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis. If not, get to the library.
He is a most sensible readable author, and not any high theology.

[withouthavingseen]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1400329' date='Oct 10 2007, 10:44 AM']Thanks for replying to me. There's a good deal I agree with cause I believe its true, however

- that is indeed bizzare and very terrible

A child gets abused by clergy but God allows it cause its the best way to draw others to Him?

A woman gets gang raped and brutalised but God allows it cause it will best draw people to Him?

A child gets assaulted throughout their childhood but God allows it cause it best draws people to Him?

and that [b]is[/b] very bizzarre and disturbing. You say , could you please explain this to me. I don't get it, to put it bluntly, yet this is precisely a central element of 'who' God is to Christians[/quote]


You're absolutely right. The mystery of evil, and specifically, why God tolerates evil, is central to the Christian worldview. To start, we call it a mystery not because reason cannot solve it or because it is unknown (that's a modern use of the word) but rather because it is unfinishable - reason can explore it forever and continue to delve deeper without ever hitting a rut, as it were. That's because ultimately, a mystery is a meeting between the Divine and the Human, the Infinite and the Limited. We can probe it forever and never finish.

Evil is not a mystery to many people, in either sense of the word. It is just upsetting. But for people who believe that God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful (most Jews, Muslims, and Christians) evil and suffering are a mystery in the first sense ("Why did God let this happen?"). For Christians, though, it is also a mystery in the second sense (a place where we can meet God). Why? How is that possible? Because God did not flee from suffering, but he plunged headlong into it, in order to not abandon us, but to be with us. He did this in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, who being innocent of any crime whatsoever suffered one of the most brutal murders ever, and not stopping there, even went into the deepest pits of Hell in order to meet those that had gone there, and to give them the opportunity to be with Him. That's huge. Really huge.

Here's the thing. "Why does God allow a child to get molested by one of his own priest-representatives?" is a very good question. It is also an abstract question. But the mystery of evil and suffering isn't just abstract. That's why a purely abstract answer like, "To bring people closer to Himself," while true, isn't very satisfying. The mystery of evil and suffering is not just God meeting Humanity - it is God meeting This-Particular-Person.

So why did God let This-Particular-Person, say Joe Blow, get molested by this particular priest or parent? Well, that's a question that gets fleshed out in the life of Joe Blow, and for that matter, in the life of the molester, and in the life of others involved (parents, siblings, and others in the community). Without more concrete details, it is impossible to even guess what God might have been thinking. Even with the details, it can be very hard and murky, a painful process to peer into the mind of God with respect to such ugly things.

I won't try to answer one of those theoreticals that you posted, not because they are bad questions (they are good ones), but because I don't know anybody well enough to whom they apply that I could even give a good guess about a particular case. What I'll do instead is relate a bit of how I have come to meet and know God in the mystery of suffering and evil.

My parents, to whom I am greatly indebted, were not perfect - either as parents or as spouses. I saw my parents hit each other, break dishes on each other, scream at each other, and humiliate each other publicly. They very often slammed doors, cursed at each other, threw temper tantrums and blunt objects at each other. I used to cringe coming through the front door, wondering if their would be icy silence or raging fury inside. Neither me nor my sisters ever saw either of our parents utter a kind or loving word to the other. They didn't treat us badly at all. Quite the opposite. They properly disciplined us (in my estimate) to be respectful, have self-control, and to be diligent. They were both good role models of generosity and hospitality. But as their relationship went from bad to worse, they lost interest in who their hatred affected. Numerous times my sisters and I were humiliated or made to feel awkward in front of friends by my parents indiscriminate warfare. Also, their way of relating to us went from self-disinterested love to manipulative maneuvering, trying to curry favor with their (teenage and young adult) children - to the point where we found ourselves feeling like we had to analyze their motives whenever they dealt with us. "What is Mom or Dad really trying to get at right now?" Finally they divorced.

The questions running in the back of my mind were like this: Why did God let my parents divorce? Why did he let them marry in the first place? Why did he make them wait so long if they were just going to divorce anyway? Why wait 20+ years? Why did I have to grow up in a warzone? Why did God let my beautiful little sisters suffer the scars of such a battle? Why do I have a hard time having mature relationships with friends and with women?

Why?

Well, in my own life those questions were not consciously asked for a very long time, but instead filled my heart with a dark and angry bitterness that I cannot describe. On the surface, I was fine - good student, decent athlete, had a touchy temper but generally outgoing and likeable. Who knew I was torn up inside?

The change came for me when I started asking the questions aloud, so to speak, to myself. The change progressed when I started seeking the insight of Christians more mature to help me see into my particular situation. The change accelerated when I began to bring the questions and insights, in prayer, to God - first as angry accusations ("You JERK, why did you let this happen?") and eventually, as some of the anger worked itself out in these ways, by actually asking God for answers ("God, could you explain to me what you were up to back when that was happening? Where were you? What were you doing? Help me understand, please.").

Now, looking back at it, I can see how God was at work. Without even bringing in religious or faith-related effects, I can see a lot of purely human benefits that were being prepared.

1) Every marriage has problems. Given our upbringing, I am amazed by how well my sister and her husband directly, openly, honestly deal with issues that arise between them. After 4 years of marriage, they have gone from hot temper flare-ups (mostly my sister, who grew up in the same house as I) to confrontations that are civil and even gentle. That is amazing. Their home does not have the same icy-firey bipolarity that our home had growing up. Theirs is cluttered and full, and warm and inviting, and peaceful. That is amazing.

2) Reflecting on my upbringing and my own response to it has really helped me gain a lot of insight into the human heart and mind that has been really useful in supporting, encouraging, and challenging others to respect other people and their emotional boundaries, to be direct and forthright, to be gentle and forgiving. It has helped me to learn those same things, and I suspect on a deeper level than many people who are simply taught to act in those ways.

3) Working to curb my temper has made me acutely aware of my own limitations, and the damage that my temper has done; that awareness has helped me to be gentle with people and forgiving of their faults.

4) Growing up in a warzone, while at first produced a great deal of nervousness in me, has with reflection and processing begun to produce a sort of unflappability that has come in handy in a number of emergencies.

All of #1-4 are obviously tools that can be put to very good use. There have also been some really beautiful religious/spiritual/faith-related fruits. These effects do not justify my parents' failure to provide a peaceful home for my sisters and me. But they show that even in the midst of those events God was working to bring about good, that he was in fact noticing, and that he hadn't abandoned us. Further reflection and inspection of memory show a number of times where, against all odds, there was a relenting of anger between my parents, or where my sisters and I were shielded from some of its effects, and even moments of unexpected hillarity interrupted or halted a developing misery. I cannot but think that Something-More-Than-Human intervened where no human could, would, or did.

OK, so that's a piece of my story. I've deliberately cut threads that connect it to other parts of the fabric of my life, for the sake of brevity really, and to try to make the point clearly. More questions arise in other aspects of my life, and answers are found in other aspects as well. One's life is a continual unfolding, and questions we ask now might not find answers for a very long time.

Faith isn't believing that there's a God. That much is pretty obvious to most people. I mean, where else did everything come from? Who else put any kind of pattern and order into the universe that is clearly not just random, but also clearly not organized by you or I? Who else put an ideas like goodness and beauty into our heads if there is only chemical attraction and biological instinct? God is the only possible explanation for those things. That's why almost everyone intuits that Something-Out-There-Whatever-It-Is exists. You even hear people say things like, "I don't believe in God because he didn't answer my prayers," which logically is nonsensical, and actually means something more like, "God didn't help when I needed it so He can get lost for all I care."

Faith is believing that, despite all the obvious carp in life, there are things that I am incapable right now (or ever) of understanding, and that is why I cannot perceive a reason and purpose hidden here, but that Whoever-Is-In-Charge does love me very much, and is working according to that reason and purpose FOR MY BENEFIT, in some way that I cannot understand yet. Faith is letting God be God, trusting that He does love us, and letting Him work on His time schedule. Faith is being content with not being God.

Faith is really freakin' hard sometimes. I don't have any kids, but if my parish priest ever molested one of them, I bet that would be one of those times when every instinct in me rushed up and flew in the face of everything I believed, and would be one of those times when faith was really freakin' hard.

That's OK. That's natural. That's even the way God made it.

Faith, Christians know, is not a set of beliefs, but a virtue, a habit of good actions, a habit of trusting actions. Moreover, we know that we don't have it in us to have faith on our own. We NEED HELP to have faith, to trust in God's good plan for us and our messed up mass-murdering-gang-raping-moms-killing-children world. We NEED HELP to wait and see, to watch as God's plan for the universe continues to unfold and make itself clear to us in its own time. The question is whether we will ask for that help, or will be too proud to ask for help, and too proud to admit that whoever made the solar system might be smarter than me. The pride is very good at masking itself, too: "I KNOW that a good god would never permit this..." Really? Am I as good as a good god would be? Am I even as good as a good nextdoor neighbor or husband or writer would be? Hmm...

Faith is an infused virtue. That's theological speak (excuse me) for a virtue that God has to put into us, or else we can't get it.

A good place to start is to ask for it. We can ask for it even with our tone of voice when we ask God those "Why?" questions. Even by shifting, like I did, even gradually from "Why, you JERK?" toward "Help me understand, please?" we implicitly are asking for something to help us trust.

So, GodChild, in brief, I don't know why God let any of those hundreds boys get molested by Geoghrey Geoghan or Jeff Dahmer, for that matter (except that, in general, he won't take back the gift of free will). I don't know why he let Hurricane Rita hit New Orleans (which he could certainly could have avoided without violating anyone's free will).

But I do know, that when I started seeking answers, they started becoming clearer and clearer to me. Life went from a meaningless facade to a deep well with lots of joy (though still some anger and hurt to be dealt with). I went from being very angry, to rarely angry. I went from detesting my parents from 750 miles away in a strange city, to having dinner with them weekly, and even, almost in spite of myself, kinda looking forward to it sometimes. My sister is one of my best friends. Her husband is a good man. Their daughter has an opportunity for something better than we had because of what we had.

My best suggestions are those I gave before:
1) Ask God in prayer - "Why?" the specific bad thing happened.

2) Ask a mature Christian for insight into whatever the specific question is - by mature I mean not just someone who knows lots of doctrine (though that is a start), but someone who's kinda "been there and done that" and come out more faithful, hopeful, and loving than they started. Search the Scriptures and the Catechism with some guidance - other people have probably already experienced something similar to the precise concrete situation.

3) Start doing the sort of things that Christians are supposed do, because those things help us to get to know the mind of Christ - listen to Mass, join a prayer group or bible study, serve the poor in tangible ways. I don't know exactly why these things help us to realize why God let such-and-such a thing happen, but they do. In my own life they have.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Sorry it's so long. God bless you in your search.

Ryan

[GodChild]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1400343' date='Oct 11 2007, 01:19 AM']Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis. If not, get to the library.
He is a most sensible readable author, and not any high theology.[/quote]

No I haven't read it

[GodChild]

I thought I was ready to talk about who God is but this is opening too many wounds for me. I used those three examples because they relate to me in a personal way and again it's the same ... the God who made the Solar System is smarter than me and who am I to think he wouldn't allow evil to happen? Am I as good as he is? Of course not, it was all necessary for someone else's benefit.

[Aloysius]

The final result of all these things is that humans end up in eternal bliss. There is not one example of evil which could remotely compare to that.

the only way humans do not end up in eternal bliss is through their own free choice, of course. none of the circumstances of evil outside of one's control can directly lead to them not reaching eternal bliss.