Monarchy Vs. Some Sort Of Democracy

[XIX]

He is clearly not saying that. He is saying that the Catholic Church is the one true faith. Huge difference.

Edited October 10, 2007 by XIX

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1400076' date='Oct 9 2007, 06:26 PM']Are you saying that non-Catholics have no hope of salvation?[/quote]

Well, to say that non-Catholics have no hope of salvation would be in error, and deny the sovereignty of God. However, I will step out on a limb and say that non-Catholics probably have no salvation (i.e., there is no good reason for believing that someone who from the beginning of life to the end of life follow error will be saved apart from some unforeseen act of God).
I do not feel the need to justify that statement, as it is coincidental to the conversation. Rather, I would ask you, do you believe that the means of salvation subsist in anything but the Catholic Church? Of course not, otherwise you would not be a Catholic believer.

However, as it does relate to the common good, it is worthwhile to argue that, in any case, it is for the common good, and the good of society that no Catholic body seem to give place to error simply for the furtherance of error's own sake.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1399934' date='Oct 9 2007, 01:14 PM']So, you're saying that all of Christendom was bad? You're saying that Austria, Hungary, Gaul, the Holy Roman Empire, and nearly every nation in Europe pre-reformation was a bad form of government? You would condemn Bl. Charlemagne, St. (Good King) Wenceslas, the Hapsberg dynasty, Louis IX?[/quote]
No, I'm not saying that. Ironically, what is considered the highest good in the modern West, individual freedom, has its genesis is medieval Europe and, more specifically, Christianity with its emphasis on the dignity of the person. Of course, let's not fool ourselves about the drawbacks of society in medieval Europe, particularly with respect to the economic impoverishment of the vast majority of Europeans.

[quote name='adt6247' post='1399934' date='Oct 9 2007, 01:14 PM']Where in Catholic teaching does it say that Christianity should with in the "marketplace of ideas"? No where. It's never been taught. What has been taught instead: "Error has no rights." All teaching contrary to Catholic teaching is error. And error has no right.[/quote]
Let me clarify: you can force someone to behave in a certain way. That's not God's ideal. We are to act as salt and light in the world by living out the Gospel, and bring about a change of hearts and minds.

[quote name='adt6247' post='1399934' date='Oct 9 2007, 01:14 PM']And again, I stated that members of other religions could live in a Catholic nation, they just would not be able to hold any political office, and their "churches" would have to pay the same taxes as other private citizens.[/quote]
Will we have "Catholic" and "Non-Catholic" water fountains?

[XIX]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1400486' date='Oct 10 2007, 05:38 PM']Will we have "Catholic" and "Non-Catholic" water fountains?[/quote]
I thought we had those already.

[photosynthesis]

Also, who says that Protestants can't get together and form their own Kingdom? If they don't like living in a Catholic nation, they are perfectly free to establish their own.

We need to remember that the Church is the new Israel. And Israel was God's chosen nation, set apart among all the nations as a holy and righteous people. Often, Israel did not live up to this purpose but still our God wanted this nation to stick together, to 'drill' its traditions and beliefs into the hearts of their children and establish synagogues and temples for Him. Look at the story of Nehemiah--he is praised for rebuilding a broken wall. Why is this? Because it is good for communities to establish boundaries to protect its members physically and also spiritually.

What was the worst punishment inflicted on the Israelites? God allowed them to be conquered by their enemies, making them live among the Gentiles. They lost their sense of unity. Their nation was almost destroyed. Most Jews fell into the decadence of pagan society, but a few tried desperately to preserve the traditions of their homeland. This is the predicament that many Catholics have fallen into today... Christendom has been destroyed and we are living in our own diaspora.

I'm not really an idealist. I have a tendency to be cynical about the future. But the Israelites, who didn't even have Christ, longed to be unified as a holy and righteous nation, under a king. They lived in hope of a Messiah who would restore their relationship with God once and for all. Shouldn't we--who posess the fullness of truth in Christ--long for the renewal of Christendom? Even though we live among the pagan nations, where most of our flock has fallen into the decadence of modern society, we should not lose that hunger and thirst for a righteous government.

Why does St. Paul reiterate again and again the importance of unity among Christian believers? Because authentic community is the best way to witness to pagans and heretics. The source of this unity is our shared belief in the Truth passed on to us by the apostles and when we live lives rooted in Catholic teaching under the Pope and a righteous king/queen, it is the best way to witness to other nations who are not built on the Rock of Peter but the shifting sand of modernist heresy and decadence.

When entire nations have the strong foundation of Catholic morals--upholding the sanctity of life and holy Marriage, caring for the poor through charity and allowing families to raise children in whatever manner they choose--they are in the best position to evangelize to other nations in a spirit of true ecumenism. A society like this is able to evolve creatively, excelling in the areas of art, music, and scholarship. Naturally, people in other countries will long for that type of greatness and they will wonder why it is absent within their borders.

Did you see that episode of the Simpsons where Homer tries to become Catholic? I think you can find it on There's a scene with "Catholic Heaven" and "Protestant Heaven." Homer dies and ends up in Protestant Heaven and discovers that it is like a WASPy country club with croquet and tea parties and other boring stuff. He looks across the clouds and sees Catholic Heaven, which is like a big party with dancing and drinking. He sees how much more joyful Catholics are and says, "I want to go to Catholic Heaven!"

That's kind of how I think about it. When a whole society is established under a holy Catholic monarchy, they have the freedom to joyfully live out their faith. This does involve a certain degree of exclusivity, but eventually the society evolves to the point where it achieves greatness apart among the nations and is able to evangelize on a much larger scale. Will this happen in our lifetime? Heck no! But it's something all Catholics should pray for.

[XIX]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1400764' date='Oct 11 2007, 12:10 PM']Did you see that episode of the Simpsons where Homer tries to become Catholic? I think you can find it on There's a scene with "Catholic Heaven" and "Protestant Heaven." Homer dies and ends up in Protestant Heaven and discovers that it is like a WASPy country club with croquet and tea parties and other boring stuff. He looks across the clouds and sees Catholic Heaven, which is like a big party with dancing and drinking. He sees how much more joyful Catholics are and says, "I want to go to Catholic Heaven!"[/quote]
Actually, it was Marge who ended up in Protestant Heaven. Homer and Bart were in Catholic Heaven.

Get your facts straight.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1400764' date='Oct 11 2007, 10:10 AM']But the Israelites, who didn't even have Christ, longed to be unified as a holy and righteous nation, under a king. They lived in hope of a Messiah who would restore their relationship with God once and for all. Shouldn't we--who possess the fullness of truth in Christ--long for the renewal of Christendom? Even though we live among the pagan nations, where most of our flock has fallen into the decadence of modern society, we should not lose that hunger and thirst for a righteous government.[/quote]
Actually, God's plan for Israel was NOT to have a king (1 Samuel 8) but for them to follow Him as their king. Note how everything went "pear shaped" for them after Saul was anointed king.

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1400764' date='Oct 11 2007, 10:10 AM']Why does St. Paul reiterate again and again the importance of unity among Christian believers? Because authentic community is the best way to witness to pagans and heretics. The source of this unity is our shared belief in the Truth passed on to us by the apostles and when we live lives rooted in Catholic teaching under the Pope and a righteous king/queen, it is the best way to witness to other nations who are not built on the Rock of Peter but the shifting sand of modernist heresy and decadence.[/quote]
St. Paul calls for unity in the Church, not political unity or the unity of some kind of Church-State hybrid.

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1400764' date='Oct 11 2007, 10:10 AM']When entire nations have the strong foundation of Catholic morals--upholding the sanctity of life and holy Marriage, caring for the poor through charity and allowing families to raise children in whatever manner they choose--they are in the best position to evangelize to other nations in a spirit of true ecumenism. A society like this is able to evolve creatively, excelling in the areas of art, music, and scholarship. Naturally, people in other countries will long for that type of greatness and they will wonder why it is absent within their borders.[/quote]
Again, preaching the Gospel, caring for the poor, etc., is not the responsibility of the State but OUR responsibility as followers of Christ.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2007, 10:10 AM' post='1400764']
[i]Also, who says that Protestants can't get together and form their own Kingdom? If they don't like living in a Catholic nation, they are perfectly free to establish their own.[/i]

I wouldn't want them to. I [b]want[/b] to live side by side with my Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim (provided they believe in peace and tolerance) brothers and sisters. I would miss them deeply! I guess we view things differently. I do not see them (non-Catholics) as threats to the my faith, but rather precious souls created by God whose presence I am so blessed to be graced with! They have much to teach me! Like I said before, we all partake in the divine life to a certain degree just by being human, and we can find unity in this. This is not to say we shouldn't evangalize, nor firmly believe and proclaim that the CC contains the fullness of the truth, but we can do this while still respecting the rights of others to practice their faith. If Mother Teresa was able to this, we can also.

Jesus was not exclusive, and I'm not certain that the Catholic utopia you describe would be his will, at least not at the present moment. I believe He desperatly wants us to evangalize the masses. There is a reason why you and I were born in this time and place, and I think the Lord would rather us work good in the political system we are currently living in, rather than wish and hope for a Catholic utopia that might never come. Rather than see religious diversity as a curse, we can view it as a great opportunity to show Christ's love to people who might otherwise never hear His name proclaimed. We might be the only Bible they ever read. Let's praise Him for the opportunity this great opportunity to love His people, regardless of creed.

Despite our problems, I love this country deeply, and I am proud to be an American citizen.

God Bless (and sanctify) America!

Edited October 11, 2007 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

Why does St. Paul reiterate again and again the importance of unity among Christian believers? [i]Because authentic community is the best way to witness to pagans and heretics. [/i]

Those are strong words! Who exactly are the "pagans and heretics" you are refering to?

[XIX]

Personally, I would not want to discourage protestants (or anyone) from living in a Catholic country. We'll have a much easier time converting them.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1400836' date='Oct 11 2007, 02:30 PM']Despite our problems, I love this country deeply, and I am proud to be an American citizen.

God Bless (and sanctify) America! [/quote]

I don't intend to address any other posts, at least until someone addresses my last one, but just wanted to say that I agree completely with this.

[Didacus]

Monarcho-Democratic Papacy with Distributive type economy

[Galloglasses' Alt]

In other words have the Papacy run the country?

Hmmm.....

[Didacus]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1739500' date='Dec 31 2008, 10:26 AM']In other words have the Papacy run the country?

Hmmm.....[/quote]

I would prefer give them power to veto unjust federal laws such as legalizing abortion of other.

[HollyDolly]

Is a monarchy better, perhasp.Though througout history there have been some very bad rulers as well as good ones.
Lets say I was Queen of such a country. The majority of people are catholic with a few, Jews,Protestants, etc.These people might be forgeiners who work for international companies like
IBM, Semeins, ATT or others.
Those not catholic would be able to worship in their own way,as long as they did not corrupt or cause desent amongs my subjects. I would ensure however that the Church worked hard at educating the Catholic subjects in their faith, so it would be harder for them to be converted.
As far as non catholics serving in public office or receiving noble titles, this would be solely up to me.If a protestant served me well in some capacity, was loyal and true to the state,then yes i may reward him or her,with another position or a title.However, as ruler, I also can take it away
and any lands and monies attached to this title.The same goes for any Catholic who displeases me as well.

Capital punishment would only be used in cases of murder,etc. that were extremely brutal or gruesome.There would be national health care for all,both Catholic and government hospitals and schools.
People would not be forced to convert, however in the sprit of brotherhood i would hope that my Catholic subjects would help their non Catholic but Christian , and even their none christian neighbors in their time of sorrow and pain.Like if a non catholic family moved into a neighborhood, the Catholics would give them a welcome packet with information on their town, and bring them some food and even help this family move in. By acting like Christ, this would make them see that we Catholics are nothing like the anti-catholic propaganda they have received in their churches over the years.And say this family later loses their home to a fire, the neighbors would help take turns letting the family stay with them until Catholic relief or the Red Cross can find a new home for them.Through such actions these people may feel the prompting of the Holy Spirit and eventually become Catholics, but not by bashing them over the head or by being in their face about it.

I would expect the Church to care for the spiritual welfare of our Catholic citizens.However the Papacy would have no political say whatsoever in regards to the running of the country.
Whatever course or decisions I make in regards to the running of the country would be for the benefit of all, not just one particular group.Clergy could not hold public office.
I want only the best for my subjects that is what is important to me as a ruler,that they become the best citizens they can and make our country proud,regardless of faith.