Monarchy Vs. Some Sort Of Democracy

[XIX]

I kinda wanna see this debate unfold. I've really never considered the question seriously before.

I want good, clean fight. No elbows, no name calling, no kicking your opponent in the shin, no personal attacks, no heresies, no idiotic and pointless comments, *please* no CAPS LOCK, no Chuck Norris references, no hideously large paragraphs, no making fun of other peoples' favorite sports teams (except the Yankees), and no making fun of other people's canonical status.

Now let's gediton!

Edited October 5, 2007 by XIX

[goldenchild17]

I PREFER a monarchy but I think any government needs to be fully Catholic to work well. A good Catholic democracy could work just as well. Both of them have their problems.

Edited October 5, 2007 by goldenchild17

[CatherineM]

I remember in my college social psychology class we studied leadership of groups vs. solo. In businesses, often group decisions don't work as well because people are afraid to voice their misgivings. Seems like really strong companies often have that one strong leader at the helm. 20 years ago I would have said democracy, hands down, but after seeing how animosity has replaced civility for the greater good in our senates/parliaments, I have some serious questions now.

[friendofJPII]

I believe *some* (i.e. freedom of religion, respect for Judeo-Christian values, not from religion) degree of separation Church and state is a good thing. Besides, right now the Church is having enough trouble running the Church. The Church should influence society and the government, but not [i]be[/i] the government. Democracy would work well if the ppl had well-formed consciences.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1398141' date='Oct 5 2007, 06:51 PM']I PREFER a monarchy but I think any government needs to be fully Catholic to work well. A good Catholic democracy could work just as well. Both of them have their problems.[/quote]

I pretty much agree with this.

[CatherineM]

Last semester in Christology someone put forth the idea that if the Roman Empire had not fallen, then the reformation might not have happened. The emperor could have put down the dissent like Constantine had to early on.

[kateri05]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1398141' date='Oct 5 2007, 05:51 PM']I PREFER a monarchy but I think any government needs to be fully Catholic to work well. A good Catholic democracy could work just as well. Both of them have their problems.[/quote]


yea, this is pretty much me. except... i think plato pretty effectively argued how democracy totally doesn't work. a democratic republic with solidly catholic election requirements would be better.

but really.... some kind of modified monarchy seems to be the best hypothetical.

[SaintOlaf]

I voted for monarchy. Simply because I do not think that people really know what is best for themselves. At least in the US, a lot of times people that I talk to every day, really don't understand the issues that they are supposed to be deciding on. A well informed, God-centered monarch with several key advisor's would be a much better situation.

[jeffpugh]

Either way, if both forms of government go bad, there will always be martyrs...

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1398212' date='Oct 5 2007, 10:06 PM']yea, this is pretty much me. except... i think plato pretty effectively argued how democracy totally doesn't work. a democratic republic with solidly catholic election requirements would be better.

but really.... some kind of modified monarchy seems to be the best hypothetical. [/quote]

yes, I don't believe a full democracy could ever work, instead turning into possible anarchy. I refer to a democratic republic style government when I say democratic. I should have clarified.

[adt6247]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1398294' date='Oct 6 2007, 05:29 AM']yes, I don't believe a full democracy could ever work, instead turning into possible anarchy. I refer to a democratic republic style government when I say democratic. I should have clarified.[/quote]
A full democracy isn't scalable beyond a village. Maybe a small county, because of wireless technology allowing "voting devices" to be manufactured.

It's no secret here that I'm a pretty staunch monarchist, but some people seem to think that I do not believe that democracy is a legitimate form of government. That is false; I do believe it is, including the US government, even though I have issues with the current leadership, and its founders.

The only degree of separation between church and state that I think is necessary is to keep clergy from holding political office. Other than that, I'd prefer a government, preferably a monarchy, that held Catholicism as its national religion, and tolerated some other religions (though, not give them perks like tax exempt status). I'm also for banning religions the state would deem harmful, such as Islam and Scientology and Satanism. All public officials or nobles would lose their office/birthright if they apostatized or became formal heretics.

Though the above principals can be applied to nearly any form of government, I strongly believe monarchy is the better choice. First, we are presented the picture of heaven as the kingdom of God. Christ is King. Mary is queen. Why should we not, then, try to imitate His heavenly court? He assigned kings in the old testament, and the others inherited the title from his choices. The pope's job includes presiding over the coronation of kings. Monarchies tend to be minimalistic in scope and taxes when compared to republics. And one man I respect made the argument that in a democracy, it takes a majority of the people to be virtuous and educated in order to make a righteous government. In monarchy, it takes one. Which is more likely?

[friendofJPII]

[i]Though the above principals can be applied to nearly any form of government, I strongly believe monarchy is the better choice. First, we are presented the picture of heaven as the kingdom of God. Christ is King. Mary is queen. Why should we not, then, try to imitate His heavenly court? He assigned kings in the old testament, and the others inherited the title from his choices. The pope's job includes presiding over the coronation of kings. Monarchies tend to be minimalistic in scope and taxes when compared to republics. And one man I respect made the argument that in a democracy, it takes a majority of the people to be virtuous and educated in order to make a righteous government. In monarchy, it takes one. Which is more likely?
[/quote][/i]

Yes, but is it the government's job to ensure/promote salvation for its citizens? I would say no, such is the job of the Church, although the government does have an obligation to uphold the basic tenets of the natural law. I believe a monarchy would create more scandal among the ppl at least in this very cynical day of age. If the ppl disliked an action the government passed, or if the king fell into sin, the citizens might develop hostile feelings towards the Church and the faith itself. Furthermore, while some issues are moral absolutes (like abortion) there are some issues, like the extent of taxation and illegal immigration, which are debatable, and should be debated in the public square. While we can trust the magesterium to be correct in matters of faith and morals, we can not assume that they will never make a poor decision in the day to day. Let's face it, people don't like be told what to do or have legislation passed on them w/o their consent. As beautiful and as necessary as our faith is, it must be freely chosen.

Besides, right now, I wouldn't trust our bishops to be on the right side of the issues, honestly. If they only spent 1/2 the energy on the abortion issues as they are spending on the illegal immigration issue.....

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1398305' date='Oct 6 2007, 06:44 AM']A full democracy isn't scalable beyond a village. Maybe a small county, because of wireless technology allowing "voting devices" to be manufactured.

It's no secret here that I'm a pretty staunch monarchist, but some people seem to think that I do not believe that democracy is a legitimate form of government. That is false; I do believe it is, including the US government, even though I have issues with the current leadership, and its founders.

The only degree of separation between church and state that I think is necessary is to keep clergy from holding political office. Other than that, I'd prefer a government, preferably a monarchy, that held Catholicism as its national religion, and tolerated some other religions (though, not give them perks like tax exempt status). I'm also for banning religions the state would deem harmful, such as Islam and Scientology and Satanism. All public officials or nobles would lose their office/birthright if they apostatized or became formal heretics.

Though the above principals can be applied to nearly any form of government, I strongly believe monarchy is the better choice. First, we are presented the picture of heaven as the kingdom of God. Christ is King. Mary is queen. Why should we not, then, try to imitate His heavenly court? He assigned kings in the old testament, and the others inherited the title from his choices. The pope's job includes presiding over the coronation of kings. Monarchies tend to be minimalistic in scope and taxes when compared to republics. And one man I respect made the argument that in a democracy, it takes a majority of the people to be virtuous and educated in order to make a righteous government. In monarchy, it takes one. Which is more likely?[/quote]

fully agree with all of this, though I'd probably be a little more strict in regards to non-Catholic religions (i.e. extend that to Protestant and not just the types you mention)

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1398435' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:45 PM']fully agree with all of this, though I'd probably be a little more strict in regards to non-Catholic religions (i.e. extend that to Protestant and not just the types you mention)[/quote]

I'm glad I don't live in a Catholic monarchy, then, because I owe my conversion to my Protestant friends (and Jesus, of course, but Jesus worked through them).

Talk about big government! I think it would extremely dangerous to give the government that much control, ppl need to be free to choose, only then will their faith have any depth.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[goldenchild17]

That's cool. We just have differing opinions. I consider all non-Catholic religions to be very injurious to the common good. Not that some non-Catholics aren't good people. I know a lot of good people who aren't Catholic, but if I had a say in anything (and many people are glad I don't ) I would not allow any non-Catholic ideas in a public forum (not meaning message board though that would be included. Forum meaning any public setting).