Cantor/living Together

[Jaime]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1398395' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:11 PM'][b][b]But people in leadership or other public positions are normally held to [i]higher[/i] standards,[/b][/b] so if they don't want their personal life to be public fodder, they should conduct themselves in such a way that they don't let it become public fodder in the first place.

Besides, letting these types of people occupy such public positions could lead some people to think that the Church does not mind this type of behavior.[/quote]


Really? I'm pretty sure that the standards are the same for all of us.

In fact I'm quite certain of it

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398396' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:15 PM']Really? I'm pretty sure that the standards are the same for all of us.

In fact I'm quite certain of it[/quote]

In the sense that it is a sin for all of us, yes, you are correct.

But any Joey Bagadonuts can come in off the street and sit in the pews and fulfill his Mass obligations even if he was just fornicating with his gf an hour earlier unbeknownst (sp?) to the rest of the public in the congregation.

A position of leadership within the Church requires Church assent.

And please remember what St. Paul talked about in his pastoral epistles regarding bishops/clergy needing to be blameless/"irreproachable" (see 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1). So I stand by my original statement.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398391' date='Oct 6 2007, 12:03 PM']Why?

I'm not endorsing sin here. But to suggest that someone's personal life is public fodder for a congregation is just plain wrong.

So in light of all the calls to admonish sin

I admonish you

charitably[/quote]

The Catholic Church has certain moral standards, if you choose not to cohabitate you are not living according to those standards and thus, invite ppl to talk. Just like, there are certain expectations of dress for the First Lady attending the Presidential ball, if she attended wearing a Big Bird costume, ppl would talk. We live in a gossip-rich culture. Weather or not people [i]should[/i] talk is a separate issue, the fact is, they will. and those who assume leadership positions in the Church have to recognize this. Unfortunatley gossip is not a sin most people have conquered. I am not asserting that people should talk, but I am stating a reality when I say that people will.

There are many things that I need to be admonished for, however, I do not feel I am doing anything wrong by posting this poll. I have not done anything uncharitable. I have not singled anyone out. I have not spoken to anyone about this, nor do I intend to, which is why I wanted to air my concern with fellow Catholics anonymously to see what they thought.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Jaime]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1398403' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:38 PM']In the sense that it is a sin for all of us, yes, you are correct.

But any Joey Bagadonuts can come in off the street and sit in the pews and fulfill his Mass obligations even if he was just fornicating with his gf an hour earlier unbeknownst (sp?) to the rest of the public in the congregation.

A position of leadership within the Church requires Church assent.

And please remember what St. Paul talked about in his pastoral epistles regarding bishops/clergy needing to be blameless/"irreproachable" (see 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1). So I stand by my original statement.[/quote]

Stand anywhere you want as long as its downwind from me. And we're not talking about clergy are we? So St. Paul's statement doesn't come into play.

Just because "Joey" is not leading the congregation in "Blest Be the Lord" does not put him in a different category. than a cantor, lector, extraordinary minister, etc. The flaw in your logic is that you want to set church staff with a different set of criteria for living. And (hopefully) you know that's just a crock.

The fact is we know nothing about this person. Don't know if the cantor is Catholic or has spoken to the priest. Nothing. All we can infer is that this person can hold a note.


[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1398419' date='Oct 6 2007, 02:25 PM']The Catholic Church has certain moral standards, if you choose not to cohabitate you are not living according to those standards and [b]thus, invite ppl to talk.[/b] Just like, there are certain expectations of dress for the First Lady attending the Presidential ball, if she attended wearing a Big Bird costume, ppl would talk. We live in a gossip-rich culture. [size=2]Weather[/size]* or not people [i]should[/i] talk is a separate issue, the fact is, they will. and those who assume leadership positions in the Church have to recognize this. Unfortunatley gossip is not a sin most people have conquered. I am not asserting that people should talk, but I am stating a reality when I say that people will.

There are many things that I need to be admonished for, however, I do not feel I am doing anything wrong by posting this poll. I have not done anything uncharitable. I have not singled anyone out. I have not spoken to anyone about this, nor do I intend to, which is why I wanted to air my concern with fellow Catholics anonymously to see what they thought.[/quote]

the bolded part is why you're getting admonished. Please quote me where it says in Scripture, Catechism or canon law that it is perfectly justifiable for people to gossip. The fact that now twice find it perfectly acceptable for people to talk behind one's back is why I'm calling you out.

And when you can't, I'll try to find the canon law that states what you're supposed to do in that situation. (hint: its not "support gossiping")

*whether

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398452' date='Oct 6 2007, 02:15 PM']Stand anywhere you want as long as its downwind from me. And we're not talking about clergy are we? So St. Paul's statement doesn't come into play.

Just because "Joey" is not leading the congregation in "Blest Be the Lord" does not put him in a different category. than a cantor, lector, extraordinary minister, etc. The flaw in your logic is that you want to set church staff with a different set of criteria for living. And (hopefully) you know that's just a crock.

The fact is we know nothing about this person. Don't know if the cantor is Catholic or has spoken to the priest. Nothing. All we can infer is that this person can hold a note.
the bolded part is why you're getting admonished. Please quote me where it says in Scripture, Catechism or canon law that it is perfectly justifiable for people to gossip. The fact that now twice find it perfectly acceptable for people to talk behind one's back is why I'm calling you out.

And when you can't, I'll try to find the canon law that states what you're supposed to do in that situation. (hint: its not "support gossiping")

*whether[/quote]

" But, the person who scandalizes even the smallest that trust me would be better off if he had a large stone placed around his neck and thrown into the sea before he caused the scandal..."

Your life is a public witness. People will watch you, people will form opinions about you, and judge the validly of your faith as a result. You are burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise. I'm stating a fact about human nature...I'm not saying gossip is right, I'm saying it happens. And there is a difference between outright gossip and noticing a discrepancy in the faith a person professes and the way they actually live. Ideally, we should look up to no one but Christ, but the fact of the matter is that most people are not at that point yet and instead look up to the people who profess to be Christians. You are right that we should all be held to the same standards, however more eyes are on the people who are leaders in the Church.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Jaime]

Nothing about gossiping there

swing and a miss

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398462' date='Oct 6 2007, 02:27 PM']Nothing about gossiping there

swing and a miss[/quote]

The issue isn't about gossip, it's about causing scandal. I remember how scandalized I was when my confirmation youth minister told us (14 year olds) that he was having sex with his fiance and that he helped someone get an abortion, and that he was fine with it. I really looked up to him.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Mercy me]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1398321' date='Oct 6 2007, 09:29 AM']I am posting [i]anonymously.[/i] I agree that if I were to name names, list the parish location, or I were even to discuss that "so and so" is living with her boyfriend w/ another I would be engaging in gossip. But I see no harm in discussing a Catholic issue in a Catholic forum, if we can't discuss tough issues, why are we here? When I asked the question, I was posting it as hypothetical situation, and was not directing the question towards a specific person. Is it my business? Yes, if children and teenagers are at risk of being scandalized, then yes, it is my business, it is [i][/i][i]our [/i]business. I remember as a teen I really looked up to the leaders in the Church and I was very dissapointed when they did not live out the tenets of the faith.[/quote]

Oh, but it is about gossip.

This is about peoples living lives. Catholic Anon is right.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1398470' date='Oct 6 2007, 02:51 PM']Oh, but it is about gossip.

This is about peoples living lives. Catholic Anon is right.[/quote]


I never said I condoned gossip. I have said that one shouldn't cause scandal. Scandal and gossip sometimes are sometimes linked, but one can be scandalized without discussing it with another. I agree that the congregation should not talk, and that the priest should talk to her directly (out of concern for her soul and the soul of others); I'm just saying that people are the way they are and the world is the way it is....people will watch how you live your life. People are like sheep, they will follow each other off a cliff.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398452' date='Oct 6 2007, 03:15 PM']Stand anywhere you want as long as its downwind from me. And we're not talking about clergy are we? So St. Paul's statement doesn't come into play.[/quote]

Clergy or not, these people are in a public position in the Church that the average Joey Bagadonuts is not. The opportunity for scandal is greater for them being in the public position than the average Joey Bagadonuts for being in the pew anonymously. They will be more noticeable than the average Joey Bagadonuts. That is the point I am trying to make.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1398470' date='Oct 6 2007, 03:51 PM']Oh, but it is about gossip.

This is about peoples living lives. Catholic Anon is right.[/quote]

First of all, even if this is technically gossip, is all gossip wrong? I don't think so. In some cases that is the only way to raise public awareness and get people worked up enough to start building public pressure to correct the situation.

[friendofJPII]

Joey Bagadonuts should be held accountable also. He should not recieve communion.