Cantor/living Together

[Anomaly]

I am basing my OPINION from the experience of serving on a Parish board for years, as well as my parents and siblings. The question is whether or not the Cantor should keep their job. That's up to the Priest to determine their employment. As far as discussing their living arrangements, that's a different story. Nothing was said about it being a friend, family member, or someone close. The question was whether or not the Cantor should have their job.

But who am I to get in the way of the Church Police to take it upon themselves to police other people's actions while assuming the worse. I'm just gullible that way.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1397999' date='Oct 5 2007, 11:13 AM']If what you are saying is right, then the words of our Blessed Lord were at worst foolish or at best in vain.[/quote]

you took the words right out of my mouth, LP. just because a situation may be [i]uncomfortable[/i] does not mean that it cannot be handled with charity. many confrontations in life - whether because of alcoholism, depression, unchastity, or other scandalous or harmful behavior - are by nature not a fun time. but it doesn't mean the solution is to ignore things. the Church is community, after all, and we have to always keep each other accountable.

were we talking about a situation that was not involving a parish, but some other work environment, well then that is not a matter of the communion of faith, and would indeed, be private.

[fides quarens intellectum]

my vote's no, especially if the person is a staff member.

[Anomaly]

Ha, ha, ha, ha. I guess that's why I'm not a Catholic.
As far as I'm concerned, you have to be having sex for it to be a sin. You have to be flaunting it for it to be scandolous. Nothing was said about the knowledge came about or the circumstances of why and how they're "living" together. Call me anti-Catholic, but I personally don't assume the worse of others. Though, you're probably right. No point going to her boss, the priest, about it. He's probably heterodox anyways and allows guitars, holding hands during the Our Father, and too many Extraordinary Eucharist Ministers anyway. You probably should visit her with two women from the Womens Guild and tell her she better get her hussy-self writing a resignation letter or you'll thump her with a missalette. Don't forget to bless yourself with holy water before and after you enter her 'den of iniquity'. LOL

[friendofJPII]

[i]As far as I'm concerned, you have to be having sex for it to be a sin. You have to be flaunting it for it to be scandolous.[/i]

Uh, they are living together. Do you think they are playing scrabble every night? Of course, we shouldn't assume the worst, but the very fact a couple (note I say couple, not mere friends) are living together is a public implication that they are having relations such is common knowledge...unless they both have heroic self-control (in which case they would most likely be close to sainthood and would never consider living together in the first place).

Edited October 5, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Norseman82]

I voted no as well.

This hits close to home for me, because at my parish there is a divorced EMHC who lives across the street from me and is shacking up with someone. Whenever she distributes Communion, I discreetly go to another line so as to not inadvertantly signal approval. And unfortunately, now her 19-yo son has learned well from her and is now shacking up with his gf.

And yes, there are parishoners in her building (mostly elderly) who are questioning how this can be allowed. And yes, I have brought this up myself to clergy (one newly ordained priest thought it was inappropriate, but he was transferred out of a parish to serve at another parish that needed his language skills). And I do recall requesting it as a topic to be discussed at the town hall we had earlier in the year, but it was never put on the agenda.

I brought up this situation to Dr. James Healy, who is on the family ministry staff for the Joliet diocese and who authored a study on cohabitation (http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabiting.shtml) , said that people who are cohabitating should NOT be allowed to hold leadership positions in the Church.

[Mercy me]

I agree with Anomoly. It is an extremely fine line that you walk. Is it any of your business? Probably not but it is the business of the pastor. To discuss this situation with others is to bring scandal. Be very careful.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1398259' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:22 AM']I agree with Anomoly. It is an extremely fine line that you walk. Is it any of your business? Probably not but it is the business of the pastor. To discuss this situation with others is to bring scandal. Be very careful.[/quote]
The salvation of souls are at stake. This is a very pertinent matter, and the woman in question should be approached. If she does not step down, the pastor should be notified. If he does not remove this woman from ministry, then the bishop should be contacted. Hopefully none of these escalations are necessary.

Cohabitation is a sin, even without sexual activity, because of the scandal present. It is reasonable for a person to assume that co-habitating persons are engaging in sexual relations, because people with even extraordinary levels of self control buckle in such situations. It's unreasonable to believe that most parisioners would assume that the couple had heroic/saintly levels of self control. Even if someone believed without asking that they did have the self control necessary, this situation trivializes the action of co-habitation, and could lead others to believe it is no big deal to control oneself while co-habitating. Thus, if you are in an active ministry in the church in the public view, and you even appear in the eyes of a reasonable man to be doing something gravely contradictory to church teaching, you should not serve.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1398259' date='Oct 5 2007, 11:22 PM']I agree with Anomoly. It is an extremely fine line that you walk. Is it any of your business? Probably not but it is the business of the pastor. To discuss this situation with others is to bring scandal. Be very careful.[/quote]


I am posting [i]anonymously.[/i] I agree that if I were to name names, list the parish location, or I were even to discuss that "so and so" is living with her boyfriend w/ another I would be engaging in gossip. But I see no harm in discussing a Catholic issue in a Catholic forum, if we can't discuss tough issues, why are we here? When I asked the question, I was posting it as hypothetical situation, and was not directing the question towards a specific person. Is it my business? Yes, if children and teenagers are at risk of being scandalized, then yes, it is my business, it is [i][/i][i]our [/i]business. I remember as a teen I really looked up to the leaders in the Church and I was very dissapointed when they did not live out the tenets of the faith.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Anomaly's post is good. I see things that scandalise me practically every day, but I'm always careful before leaping to conclusions, especially where I have only partial knowledge of what's going on. CatherineM's story is a sobering one. It's too easy to rush in and start judging women in situations like hers. Finding out whether they are living against Catholic teaching is the responsibility of your pastor, not the parishioners. Speak to him about it. Discreetly. It may be that this couple has good reasons, like Catherine's, for being in that position. The priest should talk to them about it - it's his role. If the parish at large begins to talk, this lady may end up feeling alienated enough to leave. That, to me, would be a much bigger occasion for scandal.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1398335' date='Oct 6 2007, 09:24 AM']Anomaly's post is good. I see things that scandalise me practically every day, but I'm always careful before leaping to conclusions, especially where I have only partial knowledge of what's going on. CatherineM's story is a sobering one. It's too easy to rush in and start judging women in situations like hers. Finding out whether they are living against Catholic teaching is the responsibility of your pastor, not the parishioners. Speak to him about it. Discreetly. It may be that this couple has good reasons, like Catherine's, for being in that position. The priest should talk to them about it - it's his role. If the parish at large begins to talk, this lady may end up feeling alienated enough to leave. That, to me, would be a much bigger occasion for scandal.[/quote]

If you [i]choose[/i] to cohabitate with your significant other AND [i]choose[/i] to work for the Church you are inviting others to talk. We don't live in a vacum. People [i]will [/i]talk about you and your actions. It is a fact of life. I agree that the parishoners should not gossip or rush to rash conclusions, but in reality, you know they will. It is part of human nature, which is why those in leadership positions need to take extra care to ensure that they are good Catholic role models.

Edited October 6, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1398335' date='Oct 6 2007, 10:24 AM']If the parish at large begins to talk, this lady may end up feeling alienated enough to leave. That, to me, would be a much bigger occasion for scandal.[/quote]

If the parish at large is already beginning to talk, then it just proves that the shacker-uppers have already caused damage and that action needs to be taken. And if they leave, so what - is it not more an indication that they are obstinate and refuse to accept correction? Let's be frank here - the inmates do not run the asylum. There is biblical precedent for letting obstinate sinners go (like what Jesus said about treating them like tax collectors and shaking the dust off their feet). Seeking out the lost does not equal giving approval to mortal sin. At some point you have to ask yourself, "Are they worth compromising the faith over?".

Besides, if I have to obey the rules, EVERYONE does. Gotta problem with that?

Edited October 6, 2007 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

And as far as CatherineM's situation is concerned, although I sympathize with what she went through (and probably is a subject of a separate discussion about what to do if anyone else should ever be forced into a similar situation), let's not stretch that situation in order to justify cohabitation. And as far as civilly married people go, I do know that in many (if not most) Latin American countires there is a law that you must be married civilly before any church ceremony (a holdover from the anti-clerical days), but I have met people who have been married civilly who do in fact abstain until they are married sacramentally in the church.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Norseman82

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1398345' date='Oct 6 2007, 10:45 AM']If you [i]choose[/i] to cohabitate with your significant other AND [i]choose[/i] to work for the Church [b]you are inviting others to talk. [/b] We don't live in a vacum. People [i]will [/i]talk about you and your actions. It is a fact of life. I agree that the parishoners should not gossip or rush to rash conclusions, but in reality, you know they will. It is part of human nature, which is why those in leadership positions need to take extra care to ensure that they are good Catholic role models.[/quote]


Why?

I'm not endorsing sin here. But to suggest that someone's personal life is public fodder for a congregation is just plain wrong.

So in light of all the calls to admonish sin

I admonish you

charitably

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1398391' date='Oct 6 2007, 01:03 PM']I'm not endorsing sin here. But to suggest that someone's personal life is public fodder for a congregation is just plain wrong.[/quote]

But people in leadership or other public positions are normally held to [i]higher[/i] standards, so if they don't want their personal life to be public fodder, they should conduct themselves in such a way that they don't let it become public fodder in the first place.

Besides, letting these types of people occupy such public positions could lead some people to think that the Church does not mind this type of behavior.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Norseman82