Cantor/living Together

[friendofJPII]

Take the poll and comment below.

[Anomaly]

I think that this must be some real-life situation, and if it is, it's horribly crass an inappropriate to do a poll like this. What do you hope to accomplish?

[prose]

I think there are a lot of factors. Is this cantor living with her b/f because he or she needed a place to lay their head?

Is it cause for scandal?

Does she tell everyone? Does the priest know? What does he say?

Every case is different. I would need to have more information to give my personal opinion.

[photosynthesis]

I would say no. People who are publicly engaging in a lifestyle that is contrary to Catholic teaching should not hold positions in a Catholic parish or engage in any form of lay ministry within the liturgy.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1397563' date='Oct 4 2007, 03:00 PM']I think that this must be some real-life situation, and if it is, it's horribly crass an inappropriate to do a poll like this. What do you hope to accomplish?[/quote]


I am posting anon and I'm not naming names. My ? is partly based on someone I know (I assure you it is no one on this site), but I'm really just asking it as a hypothetical ? since there are many cases like this. Let's assume that there are no extraordinary circumstances that would necessitate them living together. I believe they should not be kept on staff, those who assist during the mass should be expected to uphold basic Catholic morality considering their sacred role in the liturgy and the fact that the ppl look up to them as worship leaders.

Edited October 4, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Groo the Wanderer]

I agree. Nobody on the parish staff, paid or unpaid, should be kept in their position of authority if they are a cause of scandal. That includes the situation you describe.

[Lord Philip]

The Scriptures specifically address how to deal with people in the Church who are living in sin.

First we much approach them ourselves and speak in charity and seek understanding.

If this does not stop the problem then we are to approach the person with two or three others (other friends/family are best) to again speak in charity yet make the objection to sin clear.

If this still does not have an effect, we are to approach the Church (in this case the priest, though if the priest does not care [which in some cases is unfortunately true] then the Bishop) which is to judge the matter.

If the person does "not listen even to the Church, treat [him/her] as you would a tax collector".

Not only is this a command from the Scriptures, but it makes so much sense. Speaking to someone in charity and giving them chance after chance until they have to face God's authority is the way God himself does things. I couldn't ask for a better solution to the problem.

God bless,

Philip

[thessalonian]

Cantor, Lector, Usher, etc. etc. Makes no difference. They should not be participating in the Mass.

[Mercy me]

Something like your hypothetical happened around here and it did bring scandal even though the situation was not flaunted. Word just got out.

[CatherineM]

When I moved to Canada to get married, we had done all that the archdiocese required to marry in the church, but our wedding was canceled 2 days ahead of time because of the objections/interference of my husband's family. It took several months for us to be able to reschedule it. Without the marriage, I was left without medical coverage, and I have to be under the regular care of a physician, plus I was left without legal status with immigration, and my mother in law was trying to get me deported. We made the decision to marry civilly. I hated making the decision, but at the time it seemed like the best option of a bunch of bad ones.

We knew it meant serious consequences. We went 6 months without receiving communion which is really weird when you go to daily mass. I didn't join the choir or any other church ministry. When we were finally able to get it rescheduled, our priest was so upset that my husband's family had lied to him, and that he'd been duped by it (he was really pretty young), that he locked the church doors after we went in just in case they showed up to disrupt the service.

We knew we were not in a state of grace, and I'd like to think that we handled it with humility because it was quite publicly humiliating to me. I'd waited 43 years to marry, had saved myself for my husband, and then through no fault of ours, our wedding got canceled. Evenso, I can't imagine serving as a cantor while technically living in sin. I can tell you one thing, I was extremely careful walking across the street in constant fear that I would be hit by a car and die while not in a state of grace. After the marriage was finally blessed, I joined the choir that next Sunday.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1397843' date='Oct 5 2007, 02:41 AM']When I moved to Canada to get married, we had done all that the archdiocese required to marry in the church, but our wedding was canceled 2 days ahead of time because of the objections/interference of my husband's family. It took several months for us to be able to reschedule it. Without the marriage, I was left without medical coverage, and I have to be under the regular care of a physician, plus I was left without legal status with immigration, and my mother in law was trying to get me deported. We made the decision to marry civilly. I hated making the decision, but at the time it seemed like the best option of a bunch of bad ones.

We knew it meant serious consequences. We went 6 months without receiving communion which is really weird when you go to daily mass. I didn't join the choir or any other church ministry. When we were finally able to get it rescheduled, our priest was so upset that my husband's family had lied to him, and that he'd been duped by it (he was really pretty young), that he locked the church doors after we went in just in case they showed up to disrupt the service.

We knew we were not in a state of grace, and I'd like to think that we handled it with humility because it was quite publicly humiliating to me. I'd waited 43 years to marry, had saved myself for my husband, and then through no fault of ours, our wedding got canceled. Evenso, I can't imagine serving as a cantor while technically living in sin. I can tell you one thing, I was extremely careful walking across the street in constant fear that I would be hit by a car and die while not in a state of grace. After the marriage was finally blessed, I joined the choir that next Sunday.[/quote]Your story is the point of why it's crass and inappropriate to have a poll like this. We don't know everyone who posts here, and this is not that uncommon of a situation. In your case, if people knew you in your parish, they could well be gossiping about CathM who lived with a guy for months until they got married in the Church and the day after they got married, she joined the Choir, big as brass, flaunting what she did in everyone's face. How Scandalous!
People should err on the side of keeping their mouths shut and working on not assuming the worst. That's sort of the point in praying the Our Father 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'. Like prose and CathM wrote, there are lot's of extenuating circumstances that are possible. If it bothers you so much, then you should make an appointment with the priest and be prepared that you may be told to mind your own business.
It's not right to get two or three others to go with you and confront that person. That just cannot be done charitably. Since it's a Church position, it's a matter for the priest and you should first go and talk to the priest (an nobody else) about it so you won't be gossipping and contributing to scandal.

[Innocent]

I don't know.

In this specific case, we don't know all the issues involved, so it's impossible to answer this accurately.

CS Lewis and Joy Davidman had a civil marriage for some time, didn't they? But it is largely accepted that their love was chaste. I'm really not in a position to judge such things. So I'm sorry, but I didn't vote.

Perhaps we should assume with charity that a Christian couple wouldn't cohabit unless there were extraordinary circumstances.

But in a generic case, if there are no extraordinary circumstances, as you say, then the poll is not really necessary. The answer is clear.

At any rate, since this is a tricky situation, any decision made should be preceeded with much prayer.

Just my two cents.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='prose' post='1397564' date='Oct 4 2007, 04:02 PM']I think there are a lot of factors. Is this cantor living with her b/f because he or she needed a place to lay their head?

Is it cause for scandal?

Does she tell everyone? Does the priest know? What does he say?

Every case is different. I would need to have more information to give my personal opinion.[/quote]

I don't think you can say that even if one needed a "place to lay their head" the situation won't cause scandal. I think that regardless of the circumstances, it's scandalous. This may sound harsh, but I personally think a shelter would be a better option than living with one's significant other before marriage. "death before sin".

My personal opinion is that this is a scandalous situation and she should not be kept on staff. But I'm reading these posts to learn more...

Edited October 5, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1397871' date='Oct 5 2007, 06:28 AM']Your story is the point of why it's crass and inappropriate to have a poll like this. We don't know everyone who posts here, and this is not that uncommon of a situation. In your case, if people knew you in your parish, they could well be gossiping about CathM who lived with a guy for months until they got married in the Church and the day after they got married, she joined the Choir, big as brass, flaunting what she did in everyone's face. How Scandalous!
People should err on the side of keeping their mouths shut and working on not assuming the worst. That's sort of the point in praying the Our Father 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'. Like prose and CathM wrote, there are lot's of extenuating circumstances that are possible. If it bothers you so much, then you should make an appointment with the priest and be prepared that you may be told to mind your own business.
It's not right to get two or three others to go with you and confront that person. That just cannot be done charitably. Since it's a Church position, it's a matter for the priest and you should first go and talk to the priest (an nobody else) about it so you won't be gossipping and contributing to scandal.[/quote]

As I said, since I am posting anonymously and I am not naming names, I do not see why it would be offensive to discuss a hypothetical ethical situation from a religous moral context. As long as no one is being singled out publically there is no reason why we can't discuss issues. CathM choose to share her story freely, so I don't see what the problem is.

Edited October 5, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1397871' date='Oct 5 2007, 05:28 AM']It's not right to get two or three others to go with you and confront that person. That just cannot be done charitably. Since it's a Church position, it's a matter for the priest and you should first go and talk to the priest (an nobody else) about it so you won't be gossipping and contributing to scandal.[/quote]

If what you are saying is right, then the words of our Blessed Lord were at worst foolish or at best in vain.

Plus this does not ring with common sense. This statement is tinged with American worship of the Individual. The rest of humanity (along with Christ himself) has lived in community and has been accountable to a community, which is bound by love and strengthened by experience. What is the Church if it is not this very thing to all people?

Are you saying that a friend cannot get together with the person living in sin and bring along one or two other close friends to speak charitably? I see no impossibility, either logical or psychological.

I agree that this should not be caused by gossip, but realisticly, close friends will know when something like this is going on. Once the person acknowledges the sin, then it is the job of the priest to be the confessor. If the person does not acknowledge the sin then the holy priesthood takes over the charitable dialogue and (God forbid) the excommunication.

Peace be to you,

Philip