Catholic Authority And Orthodoxy

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Pope Clement I



"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).


Hermas



"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).


Ignatius of Antioch



"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


Dionysius of Corinth



"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).


The Martyrs of Lyons



"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).


Irenaeus



"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).


Eusebius of Caesarea



"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).



Pope Julius I

"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i still stand by the argument that if Jesus wanted the CC to have the autohrity it asserts, that the popes etc would have been clearer about this in the earlier church, if not the bible.
i see merit to Newman's argument that the church could have grown organically, but ths is not sufficient.
read these in light of an influential autority, and not infallible, and you will see what i mean.

i got these from catholic.com so i assume these are the best the CC can do in terms of texts etc.

Edited October 1, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[CatherineM]

I've always thought that the divide between Rome and the East is silly.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1396018' date='Oct 1 2007, 01:06 PM']i still stand by the argument that if Jesus wanted the CC to have the autohrity it asserts, that the popes etc would have been clearer about this in the earlier church, if not the bible.
i see merit to Newman's argument that the church could have grown organically, but ths is not sufficient.
read these in light of an influential autority, and not infallible, and you will see what i mean.

i got these from catholic.com so i assume these are the best the CC can do in terms of texts etc.[/quote]
So, the best the dg can do is go to one page of a website and declare this is the best the "CC" can do?

Here's some more quotes:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp"]The Authority of the Pope: Part II[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp"]Origins of Peter as Pope[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp"]Peter's Primacy[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp"]Peter's Successors[/url]

Really, how clear do you want it laid out? (Not to mention Christ's words in Matthew 16 concerning giving St. Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and being able to bind and loose on heaven and earth.)

The Pope's authority was largely accepted in the early Church and was not really challenged until later.

[Anomaly]

Primacy is much different that Supremacy, which is the point.

[dairygirl4u2c]

anamoly said it succinctly. i agree it's clear the bishop or rome had primacy, but that does not translate into supremcy. and even the primacy that occurred isn't such necessarily that Jesus intended that either. the primacy could be a man made tradition. i do however see some more merit to primacy than to supremcy. so i often flirt with notions of orthodoxy.
not that i don't flirt with supremecy at times.

i'm just seeing if anything new is out there that i am missing, especially from those who claim the CC is "clearly" supreme.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if only the orthodox would go to www.catholic.com they see the error of their ways and convert.
truth in website form. note the sarcasm.
(sarcasm only directed to those who say clearly, not to those defending or making their case but without the extra clearly stuff included)

[dairygirl4u2c]

if only the orthodox would go to www.catholic.com they see the error of their ways and convert.
truth in website form. note the sarcasm.
(sarcasm only directed to those who say clearly, not to those defending or making their case but without the extra clearly stuff included)

[N/A Gone]

are you kidding me Dairy?

[dairygirl4u2c]

it was sarcastic.
unless you're referring to the claim i'm making about it being an influential church?
taht's why the orthodox stay separate. that's why Cardinal Newman almost didn't convert, (but eventually decided to as that's the way things were set up etc)
don't act like it's unreasonable, cause it's not.
humility is a virtue. if i were catholic, i'd argue "converging and convincing" arguments make me catholic. not taht it's clearly the truth. ie he acknowleged the limits of history. i use him as my authority, lest people think i'm saying this stuff on my own. i just happen to take another stance than he did.

i know when i was catho i read those quotes and thought "clearly". but, then i read them one day and it hit me, that theory. and i looked into them, and say things were being twisted with cyprian and firmilian. and things were not as clear as people said. then i saw that Newman had that theory, and the orthodox, a whole church, and it all started making sense.

think about it.

[mortify]

I'm not a theologian so I can't really say what the difference between primacy and supremacy is, but it seems they would be related. Hard to imagine the Pope only sharing verbal honor when the Keys given to St Peter are authoritative. I'm curious about you folks that don't believe in any Divinely instituted authority meant to expound on and protect the Deposit of Faith given to the Apostles, how do we ultimately know what is true? The Bible is not self explanatory nor is it an exhaustive source on everything Jesus taught, we see the fruits of this in the countless sects and denominations that exist over different interpretations of the same Bible. To me the Magesterium, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition are all important factors that go hand in hand and can't be isolated, it just seems reasonable to believe in the Magesterium.

Peace in Christ