End To The Irs?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i hear some conservatives talking about ridding the government of the IRS. my position as of now: i think their intentions are good, but ultimately to hold those views would be irresponsible and/or ignorant.

IRS is needed to record and enforce etc payment of taxes, so it's needed.
Many tax issues are basic tax issues that do not involve special interest breaks and credits. ie, someone who gets a gift shouldn't have to pay taxes on it. someone who gets paid in goods instead of money should have to pay money on that somehow. someone who gets paid by a release of their debts, or otherwise gets a windfall from a bankruptcy etc, should have to pay taxes. when someone invests in a property, they shouldn't have to pay tax on the money they already put into the business, which in techincal tax terms is their basis, cause they already paid tax for it. should their basis be the fair market value of say a house at the time of sellng their property, or should it be what they invested in it? obviously what they invested, but someone needs to ensure it's all done right.

these are basic tax issues. and the government is needed to ensure it's all done fairly and properly. these are just what i could think of off the top of my head.

most conservatives, i know cause i fell in that mindset at one point, think flat tax on all your income. when it's not nearly that simple. even if i agreed with the idea of flat tax, not nearly that simple.

thoughts?

[Aloysius]

Ron Paul deals with the issue pretty well for a basic overview: [url="http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/end-the-irs/"]http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/end-the-irs/[/url]

There are a lot more complicated details, The Fair Tax plan is a pretty comprehensive and feasible plan: [url="http://www.fairtax.org"]http://www.fairtax.org[/url]

[Sojourner]

We can't end the IRS. Otherwise the $4,000 I have paid for my federal taxation class will all be for naught.

[Aloysius]

haha, you can teach an "archaic history of american taxation systems" one day... explaining the significance of the date "April 15" in historical media to the generations who will grow up without that burden :

one can dream...

anyway, I think it's a terrible injustice that we have a taxation system that has to be negotiated by people with expensive degrees on the subject. It makes us dependent upon the system and cuts down our ability to have independence and freedom the way the Founding Fathers intended it.

[SarahB]

Search the Tax laws. There's no law that says we're allowed to be taxed on the money we make for our labor. And when the IRS is pushed on that issue, they have to admit it. There was just a case in Texas where a man was taken to court by the IRS for not filing a tax return for the last few years. A jury found the man was no guilty because the IRS failed to prove that we have to.


I pray for the day we can return to the way things are supposed to be instead of the way the elite want them.

Edited September 27, 2007 by SarahB

[adt6247]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1394242' date='Sep 27 2007, 04:44 PM']i hear some conservatives talking about ridding the government of the IRS. my position as of now: i think their intentions are good, but ultimately to hold those views would be irresponsible and/or ignorant.

IRS is needed to record and enforce etc payment of taxes, so it's needed.
Many tax issues are basic tax issues that do not involve special interest breaks and credits. ie, someone who gets a gift shouldn't have to pay taxes on it. someone who gets paid in goods instead of money should have to pay money on that somehow. someone who gets paid by a release of their debts, or otherwise gets a windfall from a bankruptcy etc, should have to pay taxes. when someone invests in a property, they shouldn't have to pay tax on the money they already put into the business, which in techincal tax terms is their basis, cause they already paid tax for it. should their basis be the fair market value of say a house at the time of sellng their property, or should it be what they invested in it? obviously what they invested, but someone needs to ensure it's all done right.

these are basic tax issues. and the government is needed to ensure it's all done fairly and properly. these are just what i could think of off the top of my head.

most conservatives, i know cause i fell in that mindset at one point, think flat tax on all your income. when it's not nearly that simple. even if i agreed with the idea of flat tax, not nearly that simple.

thoughts?[/quote]
The federal government could actually have significantly more tax income if it switched to a flat tax model without a refund system, or a consumption tax model, or better yet, abolished all taxes other than tariffs and excise taxes, the IRS would no longer be necessary.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well bottomline, IRS is needed for the enforcement of taxes not paid.

but beyond that, even the models posed adt would require someone to ensure it's done proper and right. even with tariffs etc, it's too simplistic to think, gee all tarifss are such that i get money for goods. it could be good for goods. it could be good for a release of debt. it could be all kinds of things. someone has to look at this to be fair.
i kinda wonder if adt read my initial post.

i know it's complicated, and too bad an ordinary person cna'lttt understand it, but that's life. we don't want to have simplicity at the sake of fairness and other justice.
so we can either not have fairness or justice, or we can have it where everyone has to learn tehse rules, or we can have where gov people tell the people the rules when they need them which is essentially what we do now but more efficient, or we cna do what we do now.

the bottom line. no one likes that it's complicted. and every system starts with the idea of a simple tax. but realities set in and people want thins fair. i recommend the book, taxes in paradise, to illustrate that point.

Edited September 27, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Sojourner]

[quote name='SarahB' post='1394268' date='Sep 27 2007, 03:25 PM']Search the Tax laws. There's no law that says we're allowed to be taxed on the money we make for our labor. And when the IRS is pushed on that issue, they have to admit it. There was just a case in Texas where a man was taken to court by the IRS for not filing a tax return for the last few years. A jury found the man was no guilty because the IRS failed to prove that we have to.
I pray for the day we can return to the way things are supposed to be instead of the way the elite want them.[/quote]
You might want to check out the 16th Amendment: Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
(Note: I tried to link to the Wikipedia article on this, but couldn't for whatever reason. PM kept saving the URL wrong so the link would not work. So go on Wikipedia and look it up. Educate yourself.)

That's a part of our law. And if you don't pay your taxes you will get in trouble, up to and including jail time. It is a fallacy to believe that you don't have to pay taxes. And it would be very very stupid to act on that belief.

I'd like to see the citation of the case you mentioned. Because I can find several citations for cases that would contradict it.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Terra Firma

[dairygirl4u2c]

also, the constitution allows the fed gov to tax its people pursuant to tax and spend clause. a state might not have authority to tax its people, but that's its own issue.

[dairygirl4u2c]

ron pauls ideas probably just represent federalism. sure, the fed govenrment cna exist without taxes if the states are so free to do their own system. the stautes could pay the feds if the feds need money or something
bottomline, if feds need money they need the tax options.

the flat tax bill is the same thing. from the second link.

even with state laws, all the issue i posted inj the initial post would't be addressed. people are not addressing issues i presented but dodging it or reverting back to what i attacked with no real counter attack. basis problems, gift problems, who is the taxpayer problems (like if you try to give gifts to avoid paying taxes etc or if your kids work for you etc) etc.

[dairygirl4u2c]

in a perfect world we owudnt need IRS. but reality... if we say only tax income money the npeople will pay with goods or releaes of debt etc. thier motives would need fought.
plus i don't htink it makes sense to only tax money income, when someone is making income with goods instead.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so i admit. it makes sense to say we can end the IRS. i guess my thread would have to be, we need some tax system at least as states and to advoate an end to all of it is irresponsible andor ignorant.

that's a very important point i now realize. andhould is really where this thread should have gone.

[SarahB]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1394292' date='Sep 27 2007, 04:56 PM']You might want to check out the 16th Amendment: Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
(Note: I tried to link to the Wikipedia article on this, but couldn't for whatever reason. PM kept saving the URL wrong so the link would not work. So go on Wikipedia and look it up. Educate yourself.)

That's a part of our law. And if you don't pay your taxes you will get in trouble, up to and including jail time. It is a fallacy to believe that you don't have to pay taxes. And it would be very very stupid to act on that belief.

I'd like to see the citation of the case you mentioned. Because I can find several citations for cases that would contradict it.[/quote]


Actually, the Supreme Court ruled that the 16th Amendment gave the government no new power to tax us, especially on what we made for labor. That's a direct tax, and prohibited by the Constitution.

I'll have to search for that case. I thougth I had it saved on my computer, but I can't find it. I'll look for it. I'll have to look for that Supreme Court case, too. I can't remember the name of it right now.

I'm not against taxes, just unconstitutional ones.

[SarahB]

Grrr.....I can't find it. I think I read it on Yahoo, and it wasn't that long ago, maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago. But I'll keep looking. I know it's there somewhere.

[Kirisutodo333]

I think when the say "end the IRS", it means end the "income tax" period! That's what the fair tax is all about. And of course, without income tax, the IRS does not exist.

[url="http://www.fairtax.org"]Read about the Fair Tax here[/url]

It would be a wonderful thing not to be taxed for income, but only for what we consume. Imagine taking every penny of what you earn home with you.

paz

Kiris