Brother Adam Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I wrote this on the Baptist Board, but feel it could be posted here too. It is in response to constant personal attacks (by both sides of the fence, Catholics though to a lesser degree). http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb...c;f=28;t=002404 to my non-Catholic Brethren: Isn't it amazing how much easier conversation flows when you discuss in charity? Our goal should be to ask as many questions as we can think of to learn what our Catholic brethren believe rather than attack what we understand little of. Catholic theology works differently than non-Catholic theology, as you can imagine just by hearing the phrase " in the economy of salvation" If they are wrong, in due course their answers will convict them, as do the answers a Mormon gives often convicts and converts them as they listen to themself speak! Or, if they are right, then by God in heaven, let them speak the truth and turn our hearts towards it. either way- let us all speak in charity! The best thing I can suggest you do is start asking "Why? Why is this like this? Why does that say that?" You won't "win" any arguments by fighting or misrepresenting Catholic theology. So perhaps maybe its time to take a different approach. I disagree with many faucets of Catholic Theology, but can discuss this with my Catholic brethren without resorting to what has happened over the past week here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 (edited) Brother Adam, The phrase "economy of salvation" is often misunderstood by protestants and sadly even Catholics. The word "economy" in Catholic Theology is very ancient and is a biblical concept. The sense of the word "economy" as we think of it did not come about until the 15th century. (That is the sense of economy as managing funds and what not). The sense of economy as in economic systems does not come about until the 19th century. So the typical protestant misunderstanding whereby the phrase "economy of salvation" is understood to mean something like the managing of "merits" and "demerits" and people "earning" salvation is horse manure. The term "economy" in Catholic Theology is very ancient and very profound. The English word "economy" comes from the Greek word 'oikos'. This word entered into Theology from the beginning of Christianity because it is used in the Bible. For example when Paul says "you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), the word here for "household" is "oikos". This word, in Biblical Greek, means a family or a household. Again, this is a foundational category for understanding Catholicism. The Church is the Family of God. The language of economy is not about merits and demerits, credit and debit, but is about family dynamics. The "economy" basically refers to God's activity in the order of nature. All of salvation history is included. It's not a concept of the economy like in modern economics, it's a covenental concept whereby God is over all of creation as Father, and we are in relation to Him as children. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there. Peace Edited February 10, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Excellent explanation of a tricky phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Aww, shucks. Thanks Cmom. I personally think it doesn't by any means do justice... "Economy" is a broad term.. In it's broadest sense it's simply God's action, or God's plan in creation (this includes creation itself, the Old Covenant, the Incarnation, etc..). This is called "oikonomia"(sp?) and exists along side "theologia", which pertains to God's in Himself (such as the inner-life of the Trinity). These were the distinctions of the early Fathers. The development of the concept of "oikonomia" has a different flavor in the East. It identifies a branch of Theology that deals with man's restoration in Christ with God. Man's being brought into friendship and adoption with God. In an ecclesiological sense (it's secondary sense), it refers to the mercy of God and the saving work of Christ which is present to the world through His Church. I generally think of it as God's plan of salvation, whereby He makes us His children in Christ. It's His steadfast, covenant love expressed in His all wise, all good plan of salvation. God's communication of Himself and revealing Himself through Christ and through the Church so that He might draw us to Himself in love. Participation in the Divine Nature as St. Peter might say. Ack! I'm too tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Brother, You may find my exchange with Larry to be of interest regarding some of these issues. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...opic=7064&st=45 Some of it's a bit long winded but I hope it's at least thought provoking. Also excuse the occassional bouts of inflammatory rhetoric, it's just how Larry and I communicate. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 (edited) May I be the first to say, thank you Bro. I totally agree with what you've said, and how you hadled it. God will bless your efforts greatly. Edited February 10, 2004 by Jake Huether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 lol- I didn't necessarily mean for you to type all of that L_D. To be honest you can really confuse me sometimes. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 lol- I didn't necessarily mean for you to type all of that L_D. To be honest you can really confuse me sometimes. LaudDom has the catholic vocabulary down, that's for sure!! Bro.Adam, as you read more and more about catholicism, and as you become more acquainted w/ how catholics discuss and defend their faith, you will gradually take on the vocabulary of catholicism as well. also, thanks Bro for giving a heads up to our "separated brethren." btw, which facets of Catholicism do u not agree with? (have i just opened a can of worms? i hope not! :D ) no pressure bro. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 lol- I didn't necessarily mean for you to type all of that L_D. To be honest you can really confuse me sometimes. sorry Brother... I don't know what to say about that. It's just the way I think and talk I guess. Feel free to voice whatever you are thinking at any time and on any of my posts and I will try to elaborate and/or clarify. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 May I be the first to say, thank you Bro. I totally agree with what you've said, and how you hadled it. God will bless your efforts greatly. Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CICCIO Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 that was a good post Bro'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Bro Adam, i noticed w/ ciccio's bump of this thread that u never replied to my question: also, thanks Bro for giving a heads up to our "separated brethren." btw, which facets of Catholicism do u not agree with? (have i just opened a can of worms? i hope not! ) no pressure bro. would u like to reply? pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I find it extremely much easier when both sides discuss with charity. It actually makes things less stressful, and moves things along better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 hrm....which don't I agree with? lots of them. Not to say I don't understand them, I just can't accept them at this point. (though some I probably don't understand) Papal authority Catholic Ordination doctrine Communion of the saints Indulgences Sacrament of reconciliation Eucharist Venerating relics Immaculate Conception Coredemptrix/comediatrix That's some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 hrm....which don't I agree with? lots of them. Not to say I don't understand them, I just can't accept them at this point. (though some I probably don't understand) Papal authority Catholic Ordination doctrine Communion of the saints Indulgences Sacrament of reconciliation Eucharist Venerating relics Immaculate Conception Coredemptrix/comediatrix That's some of them. bro adam, we can explain one of them if u want us to. just holla back............pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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