Mel Gibson Says His Wife Could Be Going To Hell

[cimlog]

Good point Father

[Laudate_Dominum]

No Salvation Outside the Church, is indeed a dogma, but please do not say that it means non-Cathollics will not be saved. Indeed salvation comes from Christ, through the Church, but it is extended to all the world, as we say in the Eucharistic prayers.

Peace

I don't think this means that other religions become salvific because of the existence of the Church. If a hindu or whatever is saved it is in spite of their idol worship and false beliefs, not because of them. The Church certainly does not teach religious indifferentism or universal salvation, these are both condenmed heresies. But the Church says that God can work outside the normal means He has established for salvation, namely His One Church. He is not bound to this. But this does not mean that we know that non-catholics are saved. We just know that it is within God's power to save them and that if they are saved it is through Christ and the Church. The indifferentist approach makes evangelization obsolete. It is against charity and against Christ's commands to not evangelize and seek the conversion of the world.

Certainly God can save a hindu if the hindu is a "man of goodwill", but his chances of being saved will be greatly increased if he accepts the true faith. Not only that but by being a baptized, justified Christian one becomes an adopted son and a co-worker with God and can actually attain heavenly treasure. These people are missing out on eternal rewards by not being converted. If I was a buddhist and I made it to heaven I would be ticked off at the Christians if they had never tried to bring me to the faith but just had an "i'm ok, you're ok" attitude. I could have known Christ in this life, I could have worked for Him and His Kingdom, I could have received the Sacraments and the Eucharist! I could have known Our Lady and consecrated myself to Her. I could have known the proper moral law and have had a better life, etc.

[Guest]

No Salvation Outside the Church, is indeed a dogma, but please do not say that it means non-Cathollics will not be saved. Indeed salvation comes from Christ, through the Church, but it is extended to all the world, as we say in the Eucharistic prayers.

Peace

amen

[M.SIGGA]

Also, I don't think Mel is schismatic. I am pretty sure that he recognizes the authority of the Pope and the Church. His father was SSPX, but Mel is not. As far as I understand, Mel Gibson prefers the Latin Mass (that would make him a traditionalist, not a schismatic).

yeah but he built his own church outside his diocese which is a little bit sketchy. Why does everyone love and defend Mel so much like a saint? He doesn't like VII and I'm greatful for the movie but I don't understand all the hype, I don't view him any different than any other 'normal' Catholic that is able to fall into sin and error. Martin Riggs cursed more than I could in a lifetime - plus we all saw his gross man-butt in Lethal Weapon :shame:

[Laudate_Dominum]

amen

What are you saying 'amen' to exactly? The Fathers and Medievals teach that no one outside the Catholic Church will be saved. Florence made a clear dogmatic statement of this and there are others. Vatican II did not endorse a universalist interpretation which would be quite a stretch given the literal sense of these dogmatic decrees. Frankly I think it would be unbelievable and would be a clear example of the Church "changing" her "unchanging" teachings. Besides the fact that universal salvation was condemned ages ago.

Salvation is extended to all the world (all the nations) through Christ and His Church. This is in the New Testament and is what the New Covenant is all about, but this doesn't really address the issue. This does not mean that everyone is saved, or that all religions are equal. Yes, there are some truths and good things in many religions, but there are also terrible lies and abominations. When the missionaries came to the Americas they didn't tell the Aztecs to just be good Aztecs and keep offering their human sacrifices to strange gods. They converted the people for the sake of their salvation. Same with St. Francis Xavier and the Hindus. He smashed the idols of these pagans, and considered them demons that were being worshipped.

I think this attitude that everyone is just fine regardless of their religion is quite foreign to our tradition. Christianity would hardly have spread if that was our attitude. Preach the Gospel to all nations doesn't mean, "you're all saved by Christ, and you don't have to do anything about it! Just try to be a good buddhist or whatever", it means "repent and be baptized", "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, whoever does not believe will be condemned."

[hyperdulia again]

*kisses laudate on the cheek*

yes i'm a boy, but somebody had to do it.

[Oik]

I think it sounds like I and other people have been defending Mel Gibson. I say that I am not defending Mel Gibson, noly trying to keep some gossip under control when I can. As afr as him being a normal catholic, that's true, he is.

As far as this movie, I am not defeding it as much as I am defending the Truth. There is, and has always been, a movement, led by sat*n, to over throw the Church. I feel that people are attacking Catholics and will use any ammo (although usually lies) to discredit and trivialize the Church and the Truth.

[dUSt]

yeah but he built his own church outside his diocese which is a little bit sketchy. Why does everyone love and defend Mel so much like a saint? He doesn't like VII and I'm greatful for the movie but I don't understand all the hype, I don't view him any different than any other 'normal' Catholic that is able to fall into sin and error. Martin Riggs cursed more than I could in a lifetime - plus we all saw his gross man-butt in Lethal Weapon :shame:

I think you'll know why some of us love and defend him after you see his movie. Do we love Michelangelo because of his personal life or because of the product he produces in his art?

Also, some of us may be more prone to think along the lines that an overly "traditional" Catholic might be better for the Church than an overly "liberal" Catholic.

The Catholic Church is based on the Bible + Tradition. Take away the Tradition, and you have Protestantism.

God bless.

[M.SIGGA]

Also, some of us may be more prone to think along the lines that an overly "traditional" Catholic might be better for the Church than an overly "liberal" Catholic.

I just see a lack of consistency with some people who will almost condemn one dissenting Catholic to hell and embrace another who is also dissenting from Church teaching; in this case it's over one who happens to be promoting a particular movie that everyone likes.

Mel Gibson is openly and publicly disobeying the Catholic Church, and I can't see why EWTN and other people are turning a blind eye. If I built an independent Catholic church in my backyard how would that look, seriously? I'm a faithful Catholic who believes in orthodoxy, but you all would say that I was a sinful wacko, and I would be if this was true.

I know he's rich and all, and the Church isn't as strict as it use to be about stuff like this, but if you break it down it's not that different. On top of that he has played unflattering roles in a multitude of motion pictures - Lethal Weapon 4 was as recent as 1998.

I liked some of his movies and I respect him as an actor and director but I don't think it is right to idolize him as this amesome couragous traditionalist orthodox Catholic hero. 60 years ago he would have probably already been excommunicated and you might have been encouraged by a bishop and priest not to promote his movie.

[dUSt]

Why would the movie not be promoted if it's totally true to the faith, with excellent, orthodox theology--just because the artist is not a perfect Catholic?

Again, making the Michelangelo comparison--because Michelango was not the perfect Catholic, doesn't mean that his art wasn't totally for the benefit and glory of the Church. Michelangelo, was at times, totally disobedient and disrespectful to Pope Julius II, but his art continues to inspire the faithful to this day.

I admire Mel Gibson for what he produced, and nothing more--a masterful work of art that will no doubt help proclaim the glory of the Church.

God bless.

[dUSt]

Also, remember that members from the Vatican Secretariat of State, the Pontifical Council for Social Communications, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the group that oversees Catholic doctrinal questions, expressed unanimous appreciation and approval of the film.

They're a little higher up than EWTN.

[M.SIGGA]

Why would the movie not be promoted if it's totally true to the faith, with excellent, orthodox theology--just because the artist is not a perfect Catholic?

No if he was a schismatic excommunicated Catholic.

Also, remember that members from the Vatican Secretariat of State, the Pontifical Council for Social Communications, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the group that oversees Catholic doctrinal questions, expressed unanimous appreciation and approval of the film.

They're a little higher up than EWTN.

I wasn't talking about the film; from what I have heard it is going to be great and I have to doubt that it should be promoted. I wish the Vatican would have put their mark on it before the Southern Baptists.

I was talking about Mr. Gibson himself being elevated as a great Catholic role model, a loyal traditionalist, which shouldn't be - the guy has his own personal independent Catholic church.

[hyperdulia again]

i'm sorry, but we can think whatever we want to think. believing that the church is a fallbile and human institution rather than an infallible and divinne one is a grave error and a terrible scandal trad and lib. in the extreme both of these groups spit in the face of the bride of christ and fling dung at his viacr. schism is schism and schism is ffrom hell. schism is from hell when it leads one to call the vatican a wolf in sheep's clothing, schism is from hell when it leads one to dance around the altar and talk about stages of the goddess. they both put one's immortal soul in danger and they both put one outside of the church. my personal pet schismatics (heretics) are the good folks at dignity, i don't see much of a difference between them and sspv..except for the fact that the people at dignity wouldn't suggest that the Pope isn't the Pope. Schismatic Traditionalists need to stop being coddled by the Church, they are as blind and as decieved as anyone else who raises their head against the Vicar of Christ--to paraphrase Saint Catherine of Sienna "Even if this Vicar were Satan, I would grovel before him and beg the blood out of mercy." That is the only acceptable position for anyone calling themselves Catholic.

I speak of schism here, not of traditionalists in the Chhurch.

[Hananiah]

60 years ago he would have probably already been excommunicated and you might have been encouraged by a bishop and priest not to promote his movie.

60 years ago the grievances which traditionalists, SSPX, and sedevacantists have with the Church did not exist, so Mel would never have had a reason to disobey his bishop and build his own church.

[M.SIGGA]

60 years ago the grievances which traditionalists, SSPX, and sedevacantists have with the Church did not exist, so Mel would never have had a reason to disobey his bishop and build his own church.

the point is if for whatever reason he or anyone else decided to build a church for themself because of a disagreement with the pope on any issue would be warned if not excommunicated. this is not a loyal catholic action. mel has a private 'catholic' church where he doesn't have to hear the voice of his diocese and there is something seriously wrong with this fact. in modern times our bishops have become more lax, but that doesn't mean it's ok and not gravely wrong all of the sudden. you missed the point.

so Mel would never have had a reason to disobey his bishop and build his own church.

This clarifies my point exactly. he isn't disobeying just any bishop which is also disrespectful, he is disobeying the Pope. the Catholic Church isn't a democracy so if you disagree with something it teaches just bear with it, offer it up, and pray about it; don't take a defiant public action to possibly lead other Catholics away from loyalty to the Magisterium. Obviously his example is starting to have an effect on loyal Catholics. Just watch the movie and be moved by it and tell all your friends to go see it, but don't hold Mel Gibson up to something he is not. Remember that it was the protestants build there own churches.