Brother Adam Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I don't even think Mel knows the full meaning of that teaching, by his comments. I don't think many understand it much. i'm fighting a Baptist right now who is using that quote to prove that Catholics believe all "Bible-Believing Christians" (Non-Catholics) are going to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Yes, and the universality interpretation of Mother Teresa goes against things I've read that she has said or written. It doesn't make sense. I read the quotes you gave and they seem perfectly fine to me if understood with Catholic eyes. A secular type might read a kind of universalism into it though. She was a personalist, she ministered to people, not mohamedans, hindoos, etc. I think I understand what she is saying because I have done ministries to non-Catholics. You cannot approach people by first putting them in a box. And God's Spirit is at work everywhere. I'm not saying the false religions are of God or are salvivic, but God works in people's souls regardless. I recall meeting a very humble and radiantly peaceful buddhist monk on a bus once and it didn't occur to me that this was a lost, deceived heathen under the bondage of satan. What occured to me was that this was my brother with a heart seeking goodness and truth and he is loved by God more than I can imagine. It is possible to share Christ with a person without getting into doctrine and Scripture. Mother Teresa knows all too well the mercy of Jesus that visits people in their last moments. She knows that the love and mercy of Jesus Christ is infinitely greater than our concepts can approach. If a hindoo encounters Christ in Mother Teresa and says yes in his heart, not knowing a thing about doctrine but only knowing the presence, the deep call of Christ in the secret places of the soul, I doubt Christ would not receive him at death. Mother Teresa's words might have an air of scandal because they are words of love, not words of dogmatic Theology. I agree with you. The problem is, they are are actually MISquoting her by not posting the entire quote. Lots of ....... leaving out the important sections, etc. So needless to say, it was a challenge to find the ACTUAL quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I don't think many understand it much. i'm fighting a Baptist right now who is using that quote to prove that Catholics believe all "Bible-Believing Christians" (Non-Catholics) are going to hell. I agree. Unfortunately there is a lot about Catholicism that both Catholics and non-Catholics either don't know or misunderstand....which is why we are always answering the same questions over and over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I agree with you. The problem is, they are are actually MISquoting her by not posting the entire quote. Lots of ....... leaving out the important sections, etc. So needless to say, it was a challenge to find the ACTUAL quote. good point.. hmm.. those punks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 ...which reminds me, I don't know how many times I've had to explain to Catholics and non-Catholics alike that NFP is NOT the rhythm method. sheesh. grrrr. Edit: this was referring to my previous post which was a reply to Bro. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 amen! It would be nice to write little tracts on each of the main misunderstood/unknown things. Then you could just drop one on somebody rather than repeating yourself over and over again. :punk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 good point.. hmm.. those punks! Which is why I would not be surprized if Mel himself was misquoted. I would HOPE as a Catholic he understood the teaching of no one is saved outside the Church, but by the way it was written, it makes it seem he does not. Those sites I found about Mother Teresa were actually pretty convincing if you didn't know any better. They actually made her sound like a relativist and a universalist. One of these sites was a schismatic Catholic site using her as an example of the "heresy and poison of Vatican II". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 What do you all think Gibson's response should have been? He can't know the state of his wife's soul, but he can say that objectively she is outside of the normative means of salvation (I'd say he is too though). So without going into her subjective case really because he can't judge that he said based on objective truth, the necessity of the Church means that no matter how good one is if one is outside of the Church one goes to Hell. There is a culpability issue here as there is with everything else (from homosexual acts, to voting pro-choice, to being a hindu, to lying, to being a schismatic traditionalist of the sedevacantist camp); but it doesn't change the objective fact that to not be Catholic is to risk one's immortal soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 yeah buddy! :punk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimlog Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I admire his STRONG beliefs. How hard it is to say such a thing as those outside of the curch have no salvation. How bout the part he said he was nearly suicidal before he went to make the film. You gotta think he found the strength of God to make the movie and move away from suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 No Salvation Outside The Church?" by Tom Jensen Some people claim that the Second Vatican Council reversed previous Church teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Catholic position on “no salvation outside the Church” has not changed. What Vatican II sought to do is clarify the meaning more precisely, as I will now briefly attempt to do. If Jesus is God, and He left us the Catholic Church as His instrument of salvation on earth, then we cannot of ourselves create some other means of salvation than the one God gave us. In other words, we can’t say to God: “Thanks for your plan, but I’ll do it my own way.” What Vatican II had to say on the subject was that some have a saving communion with the Church even if they don’t have an intellectual understanding of such. In other words, they are members of the Church, albeit in an imperfect way, but are not within the visible confines of the Church. Vatican II said that if a person is, through no fault of their own, ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, such a person may attain salvation although they are in an impoverished situation. A person who knows the Catholic Church is true and refuses to embrace the Catholic faith would be accountable for the refusal of God’s plan of salvation. In short, God doesn’t hold us accountable for what we are innocently ignorant of. He will hold us accountable if we know and refuse, or purposely choose to deny, the light given us and remain in ignorance. For further reading, I would recommend the document released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Dominus Iesus at http://www.catholic-defense.com/dominus.htm I think he should have said he does not know the state of her soul, nor does he know if she is purposefully denying the Church. After all, any of us MIGHT be going to hell (heaven forbid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 As I said earlier, there is a culpability issue, but it doesn't change the objective fact...you see judgement, I see him using her as an example--I read the whole statement as being prefaced by an "if". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I should hope that Mel was misquoted, because if his wife reads this, you know he's in the doghouse! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 "It is not our job as Christians to convert...it is our job to make muslims better muslims, hindus better hindus, and christians better christians. How you find your way to God is up to you, whether through islam or any other religion. Its that you find a way, my way just happened to be through catholocism." well, if Mother Theresa said that... i hate to disagree but I DO! our job as Christians is to make muslims better Catholics, hindus better Catholics, and Christians better Catholics. "UNIVERSAL" means everybody's invited. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimlog Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I agree Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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