I Am Politically Apathetic

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396174' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:13 PM']Like the evangelicals tried? How would it be worth our time to get involved? How is that not just feeding into the dependancy of letting the federal system control everything?[/quote]Hmmm.
So maybe the hypothesis wasn't flawed, just it's application?

[N/A Gone]

jigga what?

What did the evangelicals want to do? i think they could have accomplished it by focusing more on the private sector rather than melting away at politics.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396150' date='Oct 1 2007, 05:16 PM']What is there to reply to?

-I disagree with the evangelical situation
The analogy of "get involved to fix" is flawed because maybe we should get involved with porn and fix that? Or get involved with organized crime? (oops, didnt Godfather already do that?) I do not see politics as a tool we should be forced to work with or even spend any energy on. I will vote for John Jameson if he is pro-life, and not James Johnson if he is pro-choice, but that is the extent of my work in politics. I could give a flip (please dont edit??) about if James Johnson smoked a bowl in high school or if John Jameson has 3 kids that are at state school. God can influence and work through his people in the private sector. Jesus and the disciples spread the message in the private sector. Not by running for senator. Politics corrupts. WHy get involved?[/quote]
Your basic premises are flawed here.
Crime and porn are intrinsically evil things.
Government and politics are not intrinsically evil in themselves, but are necessary to some extent to have a funcitioning human society. This is not to say that politicians are all pure, and that politics is not practiced in a corrupt manner, but the Church teaches that politics and government serve a good function.

There is no good reason for one to be involved in crime or porn, though fighting against both is noble activity.
However, government affects all of us, and we all must live with it, like it or not.
As I've said before, good people completely withdrawing from the political process will not make corrupt government go away, nor improve the situation, but will make it much worse, as politics will be left entirely to the corrupt and godless. All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

If politics was intrinsically evil, it would be our duty as Christians to fight against it. However, Christ did not preach anarchism.
The difference between us and the disciples is that the disciples did not live in a democratic system, and could not have any say in the government of the time. Today, we do have a say, and thus it is our duty to vote.
And once Christians were able to get into positions of power, they worked to make society more Christian, flawed as Christian rulers may have been. Let's face it, would you have really preferred the Roman empire stayed free of Christian influence, with persecutions and burning of Christians continuing?

Christians are called to restore all things in Christ (Instaurare Omnia in Christi), and to consciously neglect that is to neglect one's Christian duty.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396174' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:13 PM']Like the evangelicals tried? How would it be worth our time to get involved? How is that not just feeding into the dependancy of letting the federal system control everything?[/quote]
Christian conservatives withdrawing from politics won't make the federal government any smaller. Why hand control of government entirely to the godless big-government liberals?

[The Joey-O]

Before I say anything, I absolutely agree with Socrates, here. Much of what I say is a piggy-back on what he said.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396150' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:16 PM']What is there to reply to?

-I disagree with the evangelical situation
The analogy of "get involved to fix" is flawed because maybe we should get involved with porn and fix that? Or get involved with organized crime? (oops, didnt Godfather already do that?) I do not see politics as a tool we should be forced to work with or even spend any energy on. I will vote for John Jameson if he is pro-life, and not James Johnson if he is pro-choice, but that is the extent of my work in politics. I could give a flip (please dont edit??) about if James Johnson smoked a bowl in high school or if John Jameson has 3 kids that are at state school. God can influence and work through his people in the private sector. Jesus and the disciples spread the message in the private sector. Not by running for senator. Politics corrupts. WHy get involved?[/quote]

Porn and crime are [i]necessarily[/i] destructive perversions. If you think governance/politics is [i]necessarily[/i] evil, then much of Church's efforts throughout history have been focused on doing evil. Much of the Old Testament Law is civil Law. Saying that civil law is evil is akin to saying parts of God's word are evil. Additionally, check Romans 13:1-7. Paul explicitely says to submit to governing authorities. If government/politics were evil, then it would be our responsibility to fight against government at all costs (ala Jehova's Witnesses). If we do not assume that the government is is evil, then we must decide what to do with it. If we cannot accept it in its present form and its destruction isn't good either, then it must be reformed. We don't just give up, because it's hard. If it requires reform, we must reform it.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396156' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:39 PM']Not absolutely, but there is a strong chance. I can smoke all my life and not absolutely get cancer, but why risk it?

Show me where in the catechism it deals with our political system. Not generically politics, but our political system. Or is this the same reasoning as when Joey, in his charitable asinine innervate sarcasm suggested
Really tough, since the United states is less than 300 years old. I must have missed that part of ecclesiology.[/quote]

Did the US invent politics? No! Politics has existed for millenia. The Church has been involved in them since its earliest years.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396174' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:13 PM']Like the evangelicals tried? How would it be worth our time to get involved? How is that not just feeding into the dependancy of letting the federal system control everything?[/quote]

First, if we got into politics, we don't have to do exactly what the Evangelicals tried. On the other hand, it wasn't that Evangelicals failed in some political maneuver, they failed because they almost universally lost interest. Politicians don't feel like they can count on the Evangelical vote en masse. Only the most virulent evangelicals can be counted on, but that's it. Additionally, we, as Catholics, believe in the principle of subsidiarity. So, we'd be working to reduce the federal government's role in things where ever possible (and moving it to the state, county, and city governments or to the private sector). And thus, reducing our dependancy on the Federal government.

[N/A Gone]

submitting to authority and attempting to turn that authority into your tool are different things.

Old Test law is from God, civil law in our country is not. That is a matter of authority.

It is circular reasoning to assume that working with the federal gov't will limit is control on us.

But regardless. I dont care. Maybe that is why the apathy? Maybe the cynic is so much I could really care less who is elected because nothing will change?

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396330' date='Oct 1 2007, 11:02 PM']submitting to authority and attempting to turn that authority into your tool are different things.

Old Test law is from God, civil law in our country is not. That is a matter of authority.

It is circular reasoning to assume that working with the federal gov't will limit is control on us.

But regardless. I dont care. Maybe that is why the apathy? Maybe the cynic is so much I could really care less who is elected because nothing will change?[/quote]

Read what we write! If you submit that nothing can change it is equivical to saying that Christ does not have the transforming power to overcome the government. Either it is to be destroyed (which we can clearly see as a bad idea) or it is to be reformed. "Not caring" is not an option, just as not caring about the environment, other people, money, etc. is not an option.

It's not circular reasoning to say that we need to get involved with government to reduce its power. That's like saying, "the dam is going to break. We should do nothing, lest it break sooner!" If we don't attempt to stem the tide of big government, it'll just keep growing. This is especially true if people who wish to stop big government don't do anything to stop it.

Also, my point is that if God enacted laws and established a civil government, then clearly, government cannot be inherently evil. Of course that system was better. It was established by God. But, we don't have that system. We work with what we have and attempt to bring it into conformity with the Mission of the Church. Or, at the very least, bring it into place so that the Church can efficiently cary out its Mission without interference from the government.

[N/A Gone]

ok, thats nice. I see you have a point and you believe strongly about it. But I still do not care and I do not think it is a valid use of time to care. Sure, I will go vote, but beyond that I could care jack about what happens. I see why you care, but I do not see any reason why I should give much of a care about it.

I wont join a party, I think that allegence is not christian. It is the state attempting to act as the church. In our system the dumb majority and the media controls the power. In the old test it was God giving the authority. Not really apples and apples

Edited October 2, 2007 by Revprodeji

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396375' date='Oct 2 2007, 12:03 AM']I wont join a party, I think that allegence is not christian. It is the state attempting to act as the church. In our system the dumb majority and the media controls the power. In the old test it was God giving the authority. Not really apples and apples[/quote]

I wasn't trying to compare our government to the Kingdom of David. I was trying to prove that government isn't inherently evil.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396375' date='Oct 2 2007, 01:03 AM']ok, thats nice. I see you have a point and you believe strongly about it. But I still do not care and I do not think it is a valid use of time to care. Sure, I will go vote, but beyond that I could care jack about what happens. I see why you care, but I do not see any reason why I should give much of a care about it.

I wont join a party, I think that allegence is not christian. It is the state attempting to act as the church. In our system the dumb majority and the media controls the power. In the old test it was God giving the authority. Not really apples and apples[/quote]You're welcome to your opinion and choice of beleif. That's what most of what you've posted. Nobody can convince you to care about something if you simply choose to not care. Nobody can convince you of anything you've closed your mind too. My bad that I misunderstood your "convince me to be different" part of your original thread title.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Anomaly

[N/A Gone]

It came out of an argument with fluff and I.

I was wondering if there was any valid reason to be interested or give an effort in politics. Still seems like there is not. Just opinions and people sucked in.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396174' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:13 PM']Like the evangelicals tried? How would it be worth our time to get involved? How is that not just feeding into the dependancy of letting the federal system control everything?[/quote]

The government is in control of everything. I don't disagree. I don't disagree that its a great evil. Personally I believe (and we probably disagree on this too) that all, or at least most, of the problems with this government and any type of government, is the free rein to believe anything and everything that one wants. For me, freedom of religion (or choosing to have no religion) is the root of the problems with governmental systems. That and of course an obvious sense of greed for power and for money. That being the case however, since this is a democratic system it does have one thing going for it, and that is that even though a bunch of crackpot ideas and beliefs are introduced, also true ideas and beliefs are allowed if enough people want them. This is where we need to step up in our everyday lives and preach the truth to our neighbor. Imagine if this weren't a democratic nation and some non-Christian or anti-Christian or athiestic leader had full control as a king. That's where you can pretty much just lie down and expect nothing good to happen.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396375' date='Oct 1 2007, 11:03 PM']ok, thats nice. I see you have a point and you believe strongly about it. But I still do not care and I do not think it is a valid use of time to care. Sure, I will go vote, but beyond that I could care jack about what happens. I see why you care, but I do not see any reason why I should give much of a care about it.

I wont join a party, I think that allegence is not christian. It is the state attempting to act as the church. In our system the dumb majority and the media controls the power. In the old test it was God giving the authority. Not really apples and apples[/quote]


I think you've got a lot of good points and I agree with most of all you've said in this thread. I also agree that party affiliation is very problematic and for the most part very almost cultish in a lot of ways. I will admit that I am registered with the Republican party, and also admit that its not because I have any attachment to this party (if I could also register for a smaller party such as the Constitution party I would do that also). It is because, of the two major parties, this one seems to me to be less evil than the democratic. I am registered only so that I have the ability to vote in Republican primaries. If I'm not mistaken, far less people vote in primaries than do in the general election. As such, even though it may still be minimal, my vote as an effort to push a more worthy candidate into the nomination of the party is I believe almost more important than the general election itself. Personally I think that for this reason its worth it for everybody who wants to have some impact on governmental change to register and vote in the primaries as I think that's where people could have a somewhat greater effect.

Edited October 2, 2007 by goldenchild17

[XIX]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1395813' date='Sep 30 2007, 11:07 PM']Just to clarify, the "Budge-talk" remark was because I have argued against the exact self-same arguments regarding politics and morality from Budge.[/quote]Then say "I have argued against the exact self-same arguments regarding politics and morality from Budge." You can even (but don't have to) add a disclaimer at the beginning saying "I'm not trying to insult you, but..."

Unless of course, you actually are trying to insult Rev. Which would only prove my point.
[quote]And is the very name of Budge really so vile as to render any references thereto unacceptable on a debate forum?[/quote]I think it was clear that I was not referring to every mention of the name Budge. I tried to make it clear that I was referring to insulting comments in general, and using that as an example. Your reference was quite unclear, "you're talking Budge-talk here" sounds like an insult. But even if it wasn't you seem to condescend a lot in your posts so I was inclined to believe you were at it again.

[quote]I think whiny and over-sensitive posters drag the mood of the whole forum down.[/quote]Hence, my point about name-calling. If you want to defend yourself, fine. If you want me to listen to you, then don't call me whiny, or over-sensitive. It really doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

[CatherineM]

You want to know why I vote? Because I can. I just filled out my absentee ballot for back home in Florida. I stay informed on the issues, review what the candidates believe on issues that are important to me, ignore the politics, and vote my conscience. I had a high school teacher once tell me that with low voter turn out, my vote counts for 3-10 other people depending on the percent that has voted. Partisanship is what is tearing apart our political process. Gone are the days where you respected someone's right to disagree. True leaders, who understand the place of fair debate, and the importance of cooperation for the common good, no longer run for office. I don't blame them. Look what happened in this thread.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1396507' date='Oct 2 2007, 10:08 AM']It came out of an argument with fluff and I.

I was wondering if there was any valid reason to be interested or give an effort in politics. Still seems like there is not. Just opinions and people sucked in.[/quote]

Briefly, you yourself said that people are too reliant on the government. This is an issue you seemed to care about. If you care about it, why not do something about it?